October 2003 telescope price review

This thread is interesting becase yet again it has me evaluating my opinions on AI/A&S.

The simple fact is that without AI I would not be here now. They were out there in the spot light enough for me to join them and to get into this great hobby properly. I bought my first telecope odd them (a 6.25" DTG Dobsonian) which I still use regularly and really love. It cost me £350 all those years ago.

My opinions of AI/A&S did not begin to change untill I set up Astro2 and asked David Moore for help. What did I get ... bollox all. He was not interested in helping out a colelge society unless we could get a few hundred members from the sourounding area in too. All he wanted was money. When we explained that we had no income for the first year because of the way the college works he lost all interest and gave us nothing, not even a single copy of the magazine! At that point I started to wonder about AI and money. Is it a business or a society? Is it about helping people or about Money? To this day I still don't know! AI do lots of great things but the mention of money is never far away. A&S is a good magazine that I enjoy reading imensley and still have my subscription to.

However the AI/A&S thing still worries me. If there is nothing to hide why can't we see the books? I get very suspicious of any oganization that is not open and generally assume the worst. I am ussed to dealing with College societies who get Audited TWICE a year and where anyone can get a look at the books if they want to. AI does not come across at all well when you are used to that environment!

Right now I consider my self a subscriber to A&S but not a member of a society. I also consider the A&S shop grosely over priced. The same 6.25" Dobson I bought all those years ago (about 10 or 12) now costs MORE than it did then, MUCH more despite the massive advances in telescopes in that time you now get less for your money than before!

Bart B.,
A very confused A&S Subscriber.

However the AI/A&S thing still worries me. If there is nothing to hide why can't we see the books? I get very suspicious of any oganization that is not open and generally assume the worst.

Albert cleared this one up for me in this thread. Astronomy Ireland does not exist. It was dissolved on 16/6/2000. A&S Ltd. continues as a limited company. (See www.cro.ie for details)

Also, the A&S Ltd. books are freely available for public viewing, as are any company books. You can get a copy from www.cro.ie . I now understand that I am subscribing to a magazine called Astronomy & Space. My subscription money goes into the A&S Ltd. bank account. I also assume that any donations at AI star parties go into the A&S Ltd. bank account (since that's the only place they can go) - I wonder how these cash contributions appear on the A&S books? - What is the VAT/Tax implications of these cash contributions?

Right now I consider my self a subscriber to A&S but not a member of a society.

You've hit the nail on the head. We are subscribers to the magazine. That's all. We should also remember that as a basic principle, companies exist to make profit. A&S Ltd. as an entity exists for the purpose of making money. Everything else is incidental (including the promotional/marketing activities under the guise of 'Astronomy Ireland' - The club that doesn't exist)

So, A&S Ltd. are making money from the magazine subscriptions, telescope sales, book sales, star parties, lecture entrance fees, and their 74c/minute telephone newsline. As a company they are prefectly entitled to do so. Why all this vagueness as to where Astronomy Ireland stops and A&S starts I don't know. A&S Ltd. is the name of David Moore's company, there is no 'Astronomy Ireland'. Simple.

And as a limited company it is entirely up to them how they promote themselves and how they do business. There is nothing illegal about what they are doing. They may have a lot of customers who think they are members of some kind of club. But if this results in A&S Ltd. making profit at the end of the year, then who are we to complain?

John.

just my two cents,
A&S have a right to make a profit what people object to is their misleading adverts saying that they are club when they appear to be operating as a company. people are being lead to believe that their money is going to a club when it appears to be going to a profiting making company. if they just admitted that they are company i would be fine but they don't. people eventually get pissed off with him and another person could be lost to the hobby which has nothing to do with not liking the hobby and all to do with the actions of a minority. i think that the vagueness exists because people allow it to exist. rather than trying to call his bluff we all him to pretend that he is a club. what they are doing may not be totally illegal ? ( false advertising?), but it is immoral . the best that we can do is to promote the members of IFAS as an alternative and eventually people will get idea that joining them is not a good idea and come join us.
stephen.

Gordon, and any one else who may have taken offence, I am sorry my message came accross like that, I did NOT mean any bad intentions when I made such a reference, which was a general one to 'Joe Soap', and not Dubliners. Friends???
Seanie.

Seanie,

Apology accepted and of course we should not fall out. I probably over-reacted anyway.

Gordon

Whoa there lads, settle down. I think Seanie's point was about seeking 2 euro donations from people attending these public events.

OK, we've whoa'd.

I certainly do not agree with asking for a donation to look through a telescope. If it's any consolation, I don't believe many people at the Mars Watch actually did donate anything - the majority came along, took a look and went home with as much money as they came with.

I helped out because I enjoy sharing my hobby with as many people as possible and the AI events attract thousands. I estimate at least 500 people went through my scope alone and it's really interesting to see the reactions, especially children's, to what is probably their first view through a good telescope.

I would have liked to have helped out at Al's IAS Mars event in Sandymount as well but couldn't make it due to prior committments.

Gordon

> I estimate at least 500 people went through my scope alone and it's >really interesting to see the reactions, especially children's, to what is >probably their first view through a good telescope.


That's a very good point Gordon. John Dobson says that the worth of a scope should not be measured by what has been seen through it, but by the amount of people who have seen through it. Yours is a very valuable scope sir, in that case.
that's the kind of thing that should be packaged with every starter scope, someone to help you out, not just to say "No, it goes on the other way!" but to say "Now just aim the finderscope between those two stars, then take a look through the eyepiece". That's the kind of help and advice that you get from any average decent astronomer, just not necessarily an organisation run strictly for profit.
The business strategy of AI is very short-sighted in my opinion. I've bought a couple of books from them, as well as sundry accessories, in the past, but when I see the price comparison! I figure that excess cash is better off in my pocket, as I'm sure most people who post here do too (yes, your money is better off in my pocket :shock: !!) Therefore, due to high pricing and excessive profiteering, I no longer shop in Artane. Mary Harney was right about this shopping around lark!