Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS

16 years 1 month ago #103 by albertw
Hi,

I was wondering were there any clubs (other than the obvious one) not affiliated to the IFAS?

One that comes to mind is the Astronomy Society in Trinity. Are there more?
And if so have they been invited to join?

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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16 years 1 month ago #107 by sdbell
Replied by sdbell on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
Any that I know about have been invited (except for the obvious one, of course)

D

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16 years 1 month ago #118 by stepryan
Replied by stepryan on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
don't know about the trinity society, used to be on their mailing list but nothin g in ages from them. they were affiliated to the ias a few years ago so i suppose possibly it could be argued they were indirectly part of ifas.
stephen.

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15 years 11 months ago #225 by spculleton
Replied by spculleton on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
Hi, uh, can't help but wonder, what is the obvious one? Sorry for being a bit dim.

Shane Culleton.

Dozo Yoroshiku Onegai Shimasu

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15 years 11 months ago #226 by halenger
Replied by halenger on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
Well I'm pretty sure I know who the obvious one is.

Unless you really hate "the obvious" then I think it'd be nice for them to be invited. Something like a copy of the constitution and a letter saying once you meet the conditions set out in our constitution please do join us so we can ALL further Astronomy together.

Someone has to start somewhere... It's just a thought. Tell me to goto hell if you wanna. I may be totally oblivious to the politics but eventually the people who all hold grudges on whatever sides will no longer be in the organisations and people, possibly like me, will be running the clubs.

Unless someone's got a fountain of youth and hasn't told me!

-Halenger-

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15 years 11 months ago #227 by johnflannery
Replied by johnflannery on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
hi folks,

your e-mail signature brought a wry smile to my face Shane -- well done on conquering Leinster and best of luck for the All-Ireland ...

without beating about the bush, the "other one" is Astronomy Ireland and I guess them not being part of IFAS is the tricky business of whether it's a club or a business. The IFAS constitution is quite clear on the requirements for clubs and the set conditions exclude AI. It's unfortunate as we are all in the same hobby but it's got to be that way at the moment.

I'd rather too that this mail does not generate a heated discussion about AI like what happened before on the Yahoo group and led to accusations and counter-accusations. So, we'll just leave the topic of them at that.

I, along with the IAS, were closely tied to the Trinity group when they were active though they seem to have gone fairly quiet recently. My involvement was at the time that there were regular lectures, an Astronomy and Space Week which included a visit by a Nasa astronaut. I bumped into one of their founder members recently and must check with him as to what's happening. We have asked them a few times if they were interested in affiliating to IFAS but nothing so far.

there are a number of other groups I know of that are not in IFAS but are start-up clubs in schools though one of the most active is Gonzaga College in Dublin. The school club has close links with the South Dublin Astronomical Society. Some of the Gonzaga guys are keen to come down to Birr this year.

as well, the IFAS newsletter Arcturus is circulated to individuals on e-mail so word does get around about the organisation and reaches people who may not have an astronomy club in their locality.

another group I was wondering about was West Cork who were based in Schull. Anyone know anything about them?

John F.

John Flannery ( aurorawatcher - at * gmail - dot * com ... remove hyphens/asterisks/spaces for email)
The chicken's motive for crossing the road would not be questioned in an ideal world

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15 years 11 months ago #228 by albertw
Replied by albertw on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS

your e-mail signature brought a wry smile to my face Shane -- well done on conquering Leinster and best of luck for the All-Ireland ...


Next year..... Up the Dubs :-)

Another group I was wondering about was West Cork who were based in Schull. Anyone know anything about them?


Nope, but Jouke might, hes in Castletownbere isnt he? There was a mail on the IAS list a while back from someone in Wexford thinking about starting up a club, I'll drop them a mail.

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 11 months ago #229 by halenger
Replied by halenger on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
I've no intention of starting a heated discussion cause in all fairness I don't care about any of the politics. It's a hobby to me, that's all.

I was just making a suggestion and seeking a response-received as expected-Go To Hell!! :-p

-Halenger-

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15 years 11 months ago #230 by albertw
Replied by albertw on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS

I've no intention of starting a heated discussion cause in all fairness I don't care about any of the politics. It's a hobby to me, that's all.

I was just making a suggestion and seeking a response-received as expected-Go To Hell!! :-p


Thats was far from a go to hell response :-) Please stick around and join in the discussions!

A.I. know about the other clubs, and the IFAS, the constitution is on the site somewhere, if you want to suggest it to A.I.

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 11 months ago #233 by johnflannery
Replied by johnflannery on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
hi everyone,

I'm sorry if my last mail has been seen as a personal attack on one of the poster's to this thread. However, I think my mail was completely misinterpreted and an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction was the result.

my comments in referring to a previous discussion about AI were to be taken as such -- just an observation on the time the Yahoo group was inflamed by people slinging brickbats about David and his group and, as a moderator, I intervened to bring some sense and stabilty to what is really just a friendly and enjoyable hobby for us all.

so, let's put any incidents behind us at this stage.

I'd just like to draw attention to another comment I made in my last post about the availability of Arcturus to people not in any club at the moment. Just drop me a note to skynotes at eircom dot net (special characters to replace the "at" and "dot" -- I do this to beat the spammers!) if you would like to receive a copy as a pdf file.

Al, there is a group in Wexford being started by Dermot Rafter who is one of the founder-members of the South Dublin group. Dermot lives in the sunny southeast now and has said that they will seek affiliation to IFAS in the next six months or so once things are established.

David (Bell) has had contact with another new group in Waterford and some of their members will be at Birr. They also have been invited to join IFAS.

it looks like the future of astronomy and clubs in the country is really looking up!!!

John Flannery,
co-editor, Arcturus, the magazine for IFAS and member clubs.

John Flannery ( aurorawatcher - at * gmail - dot * com ... remove hyphens/asterisks/spaces for email)
The chicken's motive for crossing the road would not be questioned in an ideal world

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15 years 11 months ago #234 by spculleton
Replied by spculleton on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
Uh, what just happened?
Who told whom to 'go to hell'? Maybe I'm missing a post or something. That there is one tasty can of worms that just popped open! I thought this was an astronomy forum. Whatever politics and bitterness exists out there, keep it to yourselves will you? Your egos pale pretty quickly compared to what I saw through my scope last night.
I went to the Kildare/Roscommon game in Portlaoise with a friend of mine from Kildare last night. He was really gutted with the result, so we sat out the back of my place with a couple of beers and watched the stars come out. Eventually I got tired of pointing out stars and telling him that M31 is over there and M13 is up there and took out my telescope.
He got his first view of M13 last night and audibly gasped when he saw it. 'I'm really pissed off at having lost that match', he said, 'but that view more than makes up for it.'
That's what the hobby is about, not some personal issues between people from years ago. Get over yourselves, will you.

Shane Culleton.

Dozo Yoroshiku Onegai Shimasu

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15 years 11 months ago #236 by albertw
Replied by albertw on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
For what its worth I've mailed AI and pointed them to the constitution of the IFAS and asked them to consider joining. I've also asked that they mention this site in the society news section of their magazine in September/Cctober when the site is fully launched.

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 11 months ago #244 by johnflannery
Replied by johnflannery on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
hi Al/Shane and everyone,

it might have been a bit of a knee-jerk reaction on my part too -- apologies.

you are right in extending the courtesy of an invite to join IFAS Al as it is a hobby open to all. I was over in the Artane shop recently and offered to give a talk to them at some point.

got my first view of Mars last Friday night on the way home from the pub too! I still have good memories of one of the Tullamore Perseid BBQs and a few of us drinking cans, swapping stories and meteor watching by the campfire!!! Now that's astronomy!

I hope to be down Schull direction in the next few weeks and must pay a visit to the Planetarium and see if the West Cork group is still around. Another place that I'd occasionally be in touch with is the new Planetarium in Greencastle on the Inishowen Peninsula up North. It might be worth a trip some weekend in the dark of the Moon? Northern Lights anyone???

again, any info people hear of things going on around the place should be sent on to either David Bell or myself for inclusion in the next Arcturus. The July/August issue is out now so I must load it up to the FILES section of the board.

clear skies!!!

John F.
South Dublin Astronomical Society

John Flannery ( aurorawatcher - at * gmail - dot * com ... remove hyphens/asterisks/spaces for email)
The chicken's motive for crossing the road would not be questioned in an ideal world

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15 years 11 months ago #249 by albertw
Replied by albertw on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS

got my first view of Mars last Friday night on the way home from the pub too!


Strangely enough most of my observing has been after leaving a pub too.... Taxi drivers dont think much of astronomy by the way, though perhaps thats cause it was 1am and i made him drive me the 9 miles home....

I still have good memories of one of the Tullamore Perseid BBQs and a few of us drinking cans, swapping stories and meteor watching by the campfire!!! Now that's astronomy!


They were sparks you saw not meteors John ;-)

Responses to the observing board please!

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 11 months ago #260 by voyager
Replied by voyager on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
Man, I loose my net connection for one weekend and look at all the fun I miss!

Firstly I think it is a great idea to invite AI to join IFAS, they have a lot of members and a lot of resources they could potentially send IFAS's way. However I doubt very much that AI will be prepared to make te changes to their structure required for them to be eligable to join IFAS (our constitution can be found at: www.irishastronomy.org/ifas/constitution.php ).

I do however hope that they will be prepared to link to his site because this will be a major resource for Irish astronomers.

Lastly on a very minor point, John F, you are not actually a moderator yet on these boards (my mistake sorry!). There are still lots of un-moderated sections (you can see who moderates what on the front page of teh boards), take you pic and I shall make it so!

Bart B.,
IFAS Webmaster.

My Home Page - www.bartbusschots.ie

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15 years 11 months ago #262 by stepryan
Replied by stepryan on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
bart,
i would doubt that they would change to our way of working. at the first ifas meeting there was a discussion on whether would invite them but i think the general opinion was that they could join at some future point so long as they fufilled the requirements of our constitution. it is also why each society has the same number of representatives regardless of size. this was to prevent one group from dominating proceedings. it might be nice to mend the bridges but that is unlikely given the history involved. it is a shame that people who maybe interested in wsp and cosmos etc may never get to see them but he will ignore us as he cannot control us.
just my 2 cents,
Stephen.

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15 years 11 months ago #263 by johnflannery
Replied by johnflannery on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
hi Bart/Stephen,

hope you are all having a good Summer ...

thanks for the offer Bart to be moderator though I feel I wouldn't be able to do it as there's lots more on the plate at the moment -- specifically, Sky-High 2004, the annual sky guide I co-write for the IAS. Hope no-one minds the plug! We're hoping to have it published in time for the WSP. It'll be 36 pages and cost 5 euro. Will post more on it later ...

if I was going to moderate a group, could I suggest maybe a new observing forum for naked-eye/binocular observers? Or what about one entitled "What the Hell was that?"!!! -- more a forum to discuss unexplained sights. Not UFO's mind you, but things like the mysterious flashes people are reporting in the IAA journal STARDUST or the triangular formation of satellites seen by Sean Morris a while back (they were the NOSS triplets - US Navy spy satellites). How about a cloud spotters forum while waiting for clear skies ...

anyway, before I drone on incessently, tah-rah ...

John

John Flannery ( aurorawatcher - at * gmail - dot * com ... remove hyphens/asterisks/spaces for email)
The chicken's motive for crossing the road would not be questioned in an ideal world

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15 years 11 months ago #280 by albertw
Replied by albertw on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS

without beating about the bush, the "other one" is Astronomy Ireland and I guess them not being part of IFAS is the tricky business of whether it's a club or a business.


Without wanting to start a war (I've been banned from one astronomy group already today!) I just got this from David Moore:
--
A&S Ltd is a huge sponsor for AI.
Of course, the M.D. of A&S Ltd is the Chairman of AI so it's difficult to
see where one ends and the other begins sometimes, even for me.
A&S is a completely commercial operation and is run by professionals.
AI is a non-profit organisation run by volunteers and one part-time staff
Administrator.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
--
He is off on holidays soon, but does want to reply to me about joining the IFAS when he returns.

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 11 months ago #281 by voyager
Replied by voyager on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS

without beating about the bush, the "other one" is Astronomy Ireland and I guess them not being part of IFAS is the tricky business of whether it's a club or a business.


Without wanting to start a war (I've been banned from one astronomy group already today!) I just got this from David Moore:
--
A&S Ltd is a huge sponsor for AI.
Of course, the M.D. of A&S Ltd is the Chairman of AI so it's difficult to
see where one ends and the other begins sometimes, even for me.
A&S is a completely commercial operation and is run by professionals.
AI is a non-profit organisation run by volunteers and one part-time staff
Administrator.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
--
He is off on holidays soon, but does want to reply to me about joining the IFAS when he returns.

Cheers,
~Al


OK, that is an interesting reply. So at the moment it just happens that the chairperson of AI is the MD of A&S limited. The question is, does A&S limited fund AI? Is it written in the AI constitution somewhere that the AI Chairman must be the MD of A&S? And what does their constitution say about elections for the positions on the committee of AI?

If the AI constitution allows for free an open elections of it's officer board then I don't see any reason that AI should not be permitted to join IFAS.

*Ducks for cover*

Also, what board did you get kicked out of?

Bart B.,
IFAS Webmaster.

My Home Page - www.bartbusschots.ie

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15 years 11 months ago #284 by stepryan
Replied by stepryan on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
bart,
we are already warming up the tar and feathers for you ;). i will choose my words so that i will not start another flame war here ;). in principle it would be a good idea to invite them but i doubt that he would join us. i think he would rather we did not exist. i have never seen a constitution of AI mentioned anywhere even when they initially bombarded me during their split with the IAS. there is no mention of it on their website either. there is also no mention of A&S limited being either a seperate body or a sponser on their site. ditto for their shop. if i were a casual observer i would assume they were all the one and the same. i would be wary of any organisation unwilling to publish their constitution particularly when it is a club. when the president of the organisation is the same since it's inception is the same i would doubt it exists or at least allows for change of management but i'm sure that someone will correct me on this point since i have never darkened their door.
the other thing i would be wary of would be that it may become a case of ifas sponsered by AI. to put this way outside the ifas member clubs few people never have heard of the member clubs let alone ifas. there is nothing to stop him indirectly implying this was something he brought about. he is the public face of astronomy in this country such as it has one.
he is the only face people know and i am constantly asked if i am a member of his club if i mention astronomy as a hobby but that is a cross we all bear. although he may have alot of resources to help ifas i would be wary of the price we would pay. this group has done good work amongst the clubs. we talk to each other more, this website and arcturus to mention just a few things. i woudl think that we would be better off promoting ifas as the umberalla organisation or the face of it member clubs and then giving people the option to join which ever club is nearest to them. if we guide them to people in their area and they stay well then that club and ifas will be stronger. unless we are very careful with this issue it either cause alot of friction in ifas or we could be absorbed by them and that is a worse prospect.
sorry for the rather long post but to sum up we could:-
1) make and offer to them that the can join so long as they fit the consitution of ifas and agree to be bound by the rules.
2) promote ifas better and give a proper alternative to AI. maybe if their members knew we existed they would want their organisation to join.
Stephen.

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15 years 11 months ago #285 by voyager
Replied by voyager on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
Stephen, You rais some interesting points there but you seem to be making up their minds for them!

IFAS and AI are not comparable organisations in any way. IFAS is an umbrella group for other clubs, NOT a club in its own right. There are no members of IFAS, just members of member clubs. That is why IFAS never should be "the alternative AI".

The IFAS constitution is set up in such a way that it is not possible for any one club to take over. Regardless of how big any club is, it still only gets two seats on the IFAS board. Within IFAS all clubs are equal.

IFAS needs to do more PR to make it clear to people that we are here that much is true, but it is not a case of us versus them and should not ever be let become that. We are all in this because we love astronomy, it would be stupid to let politics spoil that.

I hate to see the kind of rift develop that we now see in Irish Amateur astronomy, it is not in the slightest bit helpful. I feel we should make every attempt to remove this rift by doing our part and extending the hand of freinship to AI. Simply put, we inform them of who we are what we do and the conditions for membership, if AI want to join and meet the conditions they should be welcome to join us if not, then they can't.

You (and many others) believe (and you may well be right) that AI will not meet the requirements of the IFAS constitution, and even if they did that they would not be interested, if that is the case then so be it, but I feel we should offer!

Having said all that, I would be completely against any sort of negotiation of the IFAS constitution, IMHO it should not be changed to make exceptions for any club.

Many people seem to think that AI are some big evil group but the simple fact is that if it was not for AI I would not be involved in astronomy. I am a member of AI and have been for nearly 10 years and in fact I just renewed my membership last week! I am also helped founding Astro2 in NUIM, which joined IFAS two years ago. I don't see any reason that people cannot be a member of AI as well as a member of their local club. No local club can rival A&S magazine and at the moment even Arcturus doesn't come close. I have never once attended an AI meeting and I have hardly missed a singel Astro2 meeting but I still think my membership of AI is money well spent because of A&S.

Anyhow, that is my two cent (well closer to two euro but hey!).

Bart Busschots,
IFAS Webmaster.

My Home Page - www.bartbusschots.ie

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15 years 11 months ago #286 by albertw
Replied by albertw on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
I'm currently a member of AI and have been on and off (depending on when I get pissed off with them!) for just over 10 years.

It's in my capacity as a member of AI that I've suggested they think about joining, rather than being someone from the IFAS inviting them too. I've no position in the IFAS, and advised them to mail David Bell with any queries. I have the mail I sent them in work which I can forward if anyones that intersted.

There are dangers in them joining, however I think the constitution is strong enough to ensure they cant take over. This is a big concern I had with the constitution of ILPAC also, that no one group should be able to monopolise it, though the IDA rules also bar anyone from profiting from the organisation. but thats off topic!

I got banned from the boards.ie board for breaking the rules about not talking about any particular club etc. etc. specifically I asked the astronomy.ie webmaster the following:
----
can you get rid of the following crap from the astronomy . ie website? :
"Everyone in Ireland buys Celestron, and they all buy them from Astronomy Ireland."
Two lies in the one sentence :-)
And you wonder why A&S Ltd. pisses so many people off...
----

In fairness I probably should have asked him in a personal message or something, but it pissed me off. I've taken it up with AI now, since the webmaster just puts up what hes told.

Ah well!

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 11 months ago #288 by stepryan
Replied by stepryan on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
bart,
only playing devils advocate ;). i am glad that people are going to make the offer for them to join. i am not worried really about him bending the constitution rather them presenting ifas as something he dreamt up. as they say image is everything, if people have never heard of us beforehand. i don't
think that ia are some evil group but some of the things they do and say are simply put not helpfiul to everyone. i know that all the politics is not nice but frankly if there is enough people involved in any group there is going to be some involved it is human nature. i think you should try and talk to them all i am saying is we need to be careful.
stephen.

p.s. i see the friends of AI lynch mob coming over the the hill better run ;)!!
p.p.s. only joking !!!.

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15 years 11 months ago #293 by dave_lillis
Replied by dave_lillis on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
Hello Bart,
If you're in AI just for A&S, you really need to get your hands on Sky&Telescope (presuming you dont already get it) or Astronomy magazine.

Dave L. on facebook , See my images in flickr
IFAS Rep. Shannonside Astronomy Club (Limerick)

Carrying around my 20" obsession is going to kill me,
but what a way to go. :)
+ 12"LX200, MK67, Meade2045, 4"refractor

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15 years 11 months ago #300 by johnflannery
Replied by johnflannery on topic Clubs not (yet) affiliated to the IFAS
hi everyone,

I wouldn't fault A&S as a magazine since it is the only commercial one pitched at the Irish observer. There are good articles with Gordon Nason's sky tours being particularly enjoyable. Gordon is close to having an observer's handbook published with the tours as core content and I, for one, can't wait because without a doubt he is one of the most sky aware people I know.

it would be great to get AI collaborating with IFAS as they do have the media savvy. I've often felt they might be pitched at the beginner level though there is a percentage of advanced amateurs in the membership. Combining that with the nous of IFAS could get a very dynamic series of observing groups going that would raise the profile of the hobby to a level where people would tend to stay in clubs more long-term -- a problem we all have to admit is always there.

my big criticism of AI is the media stuff. Whenever I see press-releases along the lines of "Thousands of meteors lighting up the sky" I just go "bloody hell, not again!" Now, to be fair, it could be the reporters themselves whipping up a frenzy rather than AI, but I still feel all press-releases of that sort should be tempered with caution.

unfortunately, as well as the constitution, there is a long-enduring fallout from the period when AI were first set up back in the early-1990s. Someone did comment on this thread earlier that eventually committees would be replaced by younger people, etc. and that political era would be a distant memory.

it's a little more complex than that and the AI split from the IAS was a particularly nasty episode that often rears its head. It's unfortunate but as the cliche goes, the first motion on the agenda of any committee in Ireland is "when's the split ..."!

I, for one, have always had no problem with numerous clubs in existance that would be at a national level. The real thing we need to look at in any debate is how each groups aims are pitched -- i.e. at the beginner, the longer-term member, specialised observers, or, like us in the South Dublin A.S., having a wild time burning the candle both ends!

hope I haven't gone on too long! Hope to see everyone at Birr!

have a nice long weekend everyone,

John F.
Chairperson,
South Dublin Astronomical Society

John Flannery ( aurorawatcher - at * gmail - dot * com ... remove hyphens/asterisks/spaces for email)
The chicken's motive for crossing the road would not be questioned in an ideal world

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