The lights with the red arrows are the FCO lights installed by the NRA at the Airport Roundabout in Dublin. Despite the fuzzy photo (It was taken on a ryanair plane seconds from landing!) you can see that the pollution from the FCO's is less than the more distant older SOX and semi cut off lights.

Excellent ... nice to see the difference in a local context.

Lets hope we see many more FCO fittings in the future.

Bart.

Now thats great, a real life example fo what differance the full cut off light makes, good stuff Al.

Nicely done. This is hard evidence (can't think of it another way!) to give to local councils and authorities for the benefits of using FCO's. Be it for roads, or simply carparks that must be lit all night long, to parks and perhaps to an extent playing field (as like the floodlight issue with Croker last week).

Seanie.

Yes ! There seems to be gathering momentum in the use of FCO's, I see them being used now more often in new developments a lot recently

Keith..

Yes ! There seems to be gathering momenyum in the use of FCO's, I see them being used now more often in new developments a lot recently

The NRA use them on all new roads anyway. I havent heard of any developer or council committing to using them exclusivly.

Councils haven't quite gone as far as the NRA, but my local council is replacing the old streetlights with shallow semi-cut off designs as the old lights fail.

These new lights are not quite full cut off; they have a very shallow bowl underneath them. This is apparently needed to ensure adequate light spread aloong the ground as the council is just replacing the light fittings not moving the masts. While they are not perfect they are a vast improvement; I'm was told by a lighting expert that the light spilt above the horizon is 15 times lower with these lights.

For an idea of the lights I'm talking about have a look at page 5 of this presentation.
www.irishastronomy.org/ilpac/Documents/asgi-iop.swf

Cheers,
~Al

Can you imagine a plumbing engineer who designs plumbing fittings that always leak ?

That is the status of most "Public Lighting Engineers".

The people who design those energy wasting gadgets do not deserve the honourable title "Engineer".

I have other names for them.

Non "FCO" lighting gadgets are simply STUPIDLY DESIGNED and should be called "DBI"...... "Designed By Idiots."

Peter.

Can you imagine a plumbing engineer who designs plumbing fittings that always leak ?

Thats a great analogy, a perfect way of describing it.

Non "FCO" lighting gadgets are simply STUPIDLY DESIGNED and should be called "DBI"...... "Designed By Idiots."

However when you speak to the engineers to get them to use/design better lighting its more effective to concentrate on the benefits and the things we can agree on rather than calling them idiots

Cheers,
~Al

Call them what they ARE, tell them what you REALLY think, and don't beat about the bush.

Those people POLLUTE and waste energy.

Amen.

Peter - surely there is an element of educating the end-user to choose approriate designs that reduce pollution and increase efficiency?

The poor designers would soon cotton on to the fact that their designs are not selling and either design a better product or change job.

I don't think calling their products stupid and the engineers idiots would be productive. Focusing on the design of more efficient and less polluting products would be a far better approach IMO.

Dave

The key is the comsumers. Their focus naturally becomes the focus of the lighting industry. If consumers put form over function then so will the industry. If the demand is for very pretty fixtures and all you make are FCOs then you will go out of business which is also a pretty idiotic thing to do!

It's an open market so at the end of the day the consumer is king and that's where the problems lie.

The key is the comsumers. Their focus naturally becomes the focus of the lighting industry. If consumers put form over function then so will the industry. If the demand is for very pretty fixtures and all you make are FCOs then you will go out of business which is also a pretty idiotic thing to do!

It's an open market so at the end of the day the consumer is king and that's where the problems lie.

The key to the issue of lighting is probably a multiple strategy. Designers need to design better lighting. Authorities need to implement 'lighting codes' and consumers need to be educated.

Whilst a consumer may want a pretty light that turnstheir night-time garden into a floodlit extravaganza, they'll soon rething their startegy when they get their electricity bill. I understand that ESB electricity prices are increasing by more than 20% in January. I think that will encourage consumers to economise. It will certainly encourage me.

Dave

The designers of public lighting should be informed, in no uncertain ways, that the entire Astronomical community does not look kindly on their pathetic efforts at being Engineers.

As I said, the products are amongst the most stupidly designed in the entire history of Engineering.

Don't take my word for it...look at a night photograph of any city !

Look at the stupid needless waste.

Peter . (Member IEEE...Institute of Electronic and Electrical Engineers).

Lighting Engineers are improving their understanding of the issues and pressures and designing their products to match. This in turn gives more products to their customers to use on roads.

eg. Philips Switch now! ... to energy efficient street lighting

And an example of a FCO light that Philips sell.

In terms of been energy effecient myself, I've swapped most my standard bulbs to energy saving bulbs, it costs a bit but at the end of the day, they pay for themselves.
The only catch is that they dont work with dimmer switches.

Peter - how's about you send a letter to these stupid designers/engineers and tell them how pathetic theirefforts really are?

Even better, get them to sign up to the boards here (for free) and have that conversation on-line.

I bet we could sell tickets to that particular event... :wink:

Dave

Peter - how's about you send a letter to these stupid designers/engineers and tell them how pathetic theirefforts really are?

Even better, get them to sign up to the boards here (for free) and have that conversation on-line.

There are one or two lighting engineers on here already

I'd send a letter to a lighting "engineer" the same as I'd send a letter to a plumbing engineer who designs plumbing equipment that always leaks.

The two lighting engineers aught to hide their light pollution under a bushel.

I'd send a letter to a lighting "engineer" the same as I'd send a letter to a plumbing engineer who designs plumbing equipment that always leaks.

As the Nike by-line says, Just Do It!

The new light fixtures above the brand new over-pass at the Kinsale Roundabout in Cork City are a nice example of DBI lighting.

At a guess I'd say that 80% + of the light is thrown away.

As I said DBI=Designed By Idiots.

Peter.

Essentially we're asking designers, planners, and users to do us a favour and use FCO lighting or similar in order to reduce the light pollution so we can observe the stars more easily.

In my experience calling people you are asking to do you a favour idiots is not an effective method of endearing them to your cause.

Nothing to do with the stars,really.

The IDEAL (non-achieveable I know) design criterion for a light fixture should be this:

"The light must hit the target,the whole target, and nothing but the target."

In this age of the Kyoto Protocol, of Energy Conservation and of Global warming, these people, "energy enginneers" so called, don't even make an effort to direct the hard-generated energy to the target.

The blazing night sky,polluted with wasted energy, testifies to the (their) most spectacularly thick way of designing anything I have ever come across.

Peter.

In my experience calling people you are asking to do you a favour idiots is not an effective method of endearing them to your cause.

You not quite the diplomat, are you Peter :wink:
When you get home, try saying, "Hi you idiot, whats for dinner" and see what happens.
Seriously though, I feel your anger Peter, maybe you should write a few letters to the local councils (or whoever's incharge) and get make them see the light.