6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.

4 weeks 13 hours ago #107867 by flt158
6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia. was created by flt158
Hello everyone.

As you all know, my main scope is a William Optics 158 mm f/7 apochromatic refractor.
Its guidescope is another apochromatic refractor which is a William Optics 70 mm f/6 with mirror diagonals fitted to both scopes at all times.
They are attached to a Berlebach Planet altazimuth mount.

Some time ago a friend on Cloudy Nights recommended that I should do an observation of 35 Cassiopeiae.
While I was checking the position of this optical binary, I also checked out some more doubles which are close by.

As ever, I printed off a map from my Guide 9.1 DVD.

I observed another 5 doubles on the same night (Thursday 17th October) and I have included their magnitudes, separations and position angles which all come from the reputable website www.stelledoppie.it

1. 35 Cassiopeiae: Magnitudes: 6.3 & 8.6. Sep: 57.4". PA: 342 degrees. The primary is almost completely white with the slightest tint of blue at higher magnifications. Its spectral Class is A2. At 40X I had no problems seeing a good split between A and B.
But you will want to know what was the colour of the secondary I saw. So I steadily increased my magnifications from 112X to 140X, and lastly 167X. Sissy Haas records in her Double Star book for Small Telescopes that the star is rose red. I thought it is more tangerine. But my wife thinks it is a rusty colour. As yet I have not been able to discover the spectral class of 35 Cassiopeiae B. Perhaps some of you could find out for me. I will be delighted to hear from you. Please do clear up this mystery. Either way, I can safely say that 35 Cass is an absolute gem! The secondary has a most unusual hue.

2. 44' east of 35 Cass is another optical double star and I had no problem splitting Stf 121 at 40X. Magnitudes: 9.5 & 10.2. Sep: 12". PA: 268 degrees. I did find its colours quite fascinating also. A is definitely orange. B is yellow. How rare is that? Therefore to appreciate those colours even more I used the same magnifications: 112X, 140X and 167X. Despite its dimness I found it very pleasurable.

3. Stf 109 probably is a true binary. It is 47' south of 35 Cass. Magnitudes: 9.9 & 10.5. Sep: 7.3". PA: 9 degrees. 40X gave an easy split. 112X was nice too. Both stars are white.

4. Sti 200 was designated by J. Stein. (Who's he?) Anyway it is another easy split at 40X. It might be a true binary almost 1' southwest from 35 Cass. Magnitudes: 10.4 & 11.1. Separation: 11.3". PA: 152 degrees. Extremely faint at low power. More pleasing at 112X. It is very near Stf 109. Some might call the pair a double - double. Although there is quite a gap between them.

5. HJ 1085 is a splendid true binary which is about 2 degrees east of 35 Cass. The primary is yellow - orange. The secondary is white. The magnitudes are almost identical: 9.5 & 9.6. Sep: 3.9". PA: 298 degrees. I required 112X to split it. I greatly admired it at 140X and 167X.

6. 12' northwest of HJ 1086 is a one of the faintest optical doubles I have ever observed. It's that guy J. Stein again. Sti 245 was not visible at 40X. But at 112X, 140X, 167X and 225X I had no problem seeing A and B split. Both stars are white. Magnitudes: 11.2 & 11.9. Sep: 12.7". PA: 81 degrees.

There are a few more doubles near 35 Cassiopeia I plan to observe some time soon.

I must share with you one last thing I noticed.

At the start of the evening, the constellation of Cassiopeia was shaped like a true "W".
But by 11 pm local time, it had become a vertically zigzag as the set of stars climbed higher in the north eastern sky.

Please feel free to comment.

Thank you for reading.

Clear skies from Aubrey.
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4 weeks 4 hours ago #107868 by Fermidox
Replied by Fermidox on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Great report Aubrey, here's how 35 Cas looks on the Digital Sky Survey



Finbarr.
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4 weeks 3 hours ago #107870 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey,

Delighted to read that you've returned to the eyepiece after feeling unwell as I really enjoy reading your observational reports. And it seems that your most recent observational reports (August and October) on Cassiopeia have been time well spent.

After doing a little bit of research this evening on the infamous 35  Cassiopeiae B for you, I have some interesting news ...

A 2013 paper published in the Journal of Double Star Observations claims that both stars are blue (I've provided a link to the paper below), which would imply that it has a spectral class of 'O' or 'B' right?

Surely, their claim that both stars are blue is incorrect. More tellingly, the paper has yet to be cited in any other peer-reviewed paper.

So, I decided to search for the contact details of one of the senior researchers to shed light on the claim that both stars are blue - pun absolutely intended. He may be able to finally put the issue of the mysterious 35 Cassiopeiae B to bed for you.

 Here are the contact details: 

www.orionobservatory.org/About%20Russ.html

Best of luck and clear skies,

Darren.

Here is the link:

scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=70143...783&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5
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4 weeks 2 hours ago #107873 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Darren.

Do you know? I just might contact that bloke some time.

However I am waiting to hear from the serious amateur experts will say over on www.cloudynights.com over the coming days.
They often come back to me with their opinions.

By the way, I was out observing again tonight Saturday; and I observed some extremely stubborn doubles in Cassiopeia.
I will do my utmost to update you all tomorrow.

Kind regards,

Aubrey.
.
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3 weeks 6 days ago #107874 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey,

It will interesting to hear what the people on CN come back with. I suspect their comments will also describe a more red / orange colour: that blue observation can't be right!

I hope last night's session went well, and I'm looking forward to reading about it.

Clear skies,

Darren.

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3 weeks 3 days ago #107885 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey,

I hope you're keeping well. I think I may have found the spectral class of the companion star in 35 Cassiopeiae.

After some additional desk-based research using the VizieR database, it seems to state that the spectral class is 'MK'.

This would concur with your observational report (and Finbarr's image)

Here is the link to the webpage that contains the information I'm referring to:

vizier.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/VizieR-5?-re...146/ppm1&recno=12911

Of course I may be wrong, so I'm open to correction.

Kindest regards,

Darren.
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3 weeks 3 days ago #107886 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hello, Darren.

I did check out 35 Cassiopeiae B on Vizie R, and I have done so again just now.
But I'm not seeing its spectral class at all.

So I have to ask you where is the information of our colourful star.
I definitely agree it is an M-class star.
And I am fascinated by this MK class.
I'm now wondering how many other MK stars there are in the sky.

By the way, I have found out who J. Stein is.
I got a reply on Cloudy Nights only a few hours ago.
Johan Stein was a Roman Catholic priest who lived from 1851 to 1951 and who studied many different subjects including discovering some new doubles stars.

And I have just requested once again what class 35 Cassiopeiae B is.
(We must remember the secondary is an optical companion to the primary.)
Perhaps this time someone will come back to me.

Thank you, Darren, for all your hard work.

Kindest regards,

Aubrey.
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3 weeks 3 days ago #107887 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey,

Lovely to hear from you, and it is the very least I can do - you've been so helpful and supportive of me over the past few months, and I'm learning an incredible amount about the night sky from you.

In terms of locating the spectral class for 35 Cassiopeiae B I discovered that 35 Cassiopeiae B can also be identified by BD +63 175.0. 

However when I entered this into Simbad, it did not reveal anything. So, I tried a few different approaches when entering the data into Sinbad. Once I entered BD+63175 (note no spaces), the following screen popped up:

simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/sim-id?Ident=...min&submit=submit+id

Looking over this page I noted several other identifiers for 35 Cassiopeiae B. I clicked on several links, but it was 'PPM 12911' that revealed the spectral class.

For example, once I clicked the identifiers link for 'PPM 12911', or if i clicked on 'PPM 12911' - listed under the external archives heading - I was brought here:

vizier.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/VizieR-S?PPM%20%2012911

Once on this page I clicked the link showing the number '1' under the heading 'full', and it brought me here:

vizier.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/VizieR-5?-re...146/ppm1&recno=12911 .

I noticed the 'SP' heading on the left, and beside it on the right, it showed 'Spectral Type'. I was delighted! But I had one more step before I could confirm the Spectral Type. Eagerly, I clicked the link that reads '(src.spType)'

And presto, a window popped up with message: 'src.spType Spectral type MK'.

I've since discovered a slightly quicker way to get to the last point. For example on this page ( vizier.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/VizieR-S?PPM%2012911 ), if you click on 'SP' (11th column from the left); the following details appear:

UCD:SPECT_TYPE_GENERAL = Spectrum Classification 

UCD1+: src.spType = Spectral type MK

Type:ascii string(2)

dbType: char(2) (fixed-length left-adjusted String (2) (no leading blank allowed))
Flags:0x4003:   
VO_DISPLAY Column to display
VO_SELECT Column to select
VO_LEFTADJ Column can't start with blank

Please bear in mind, I am not sure whether what I have done has identified the correct spectral type of 35 Cassiopeiae B, but I thought I'd share what I've done with you and the other more knowledgeable members of the IFAS to decide whether I was barking-up-the-wrong-tree earlier.

Also, that's very interesting about Johan Stein - many thanks for that Aubrey!

Clear skies,

Darren.
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3 weeks 3 days ago #107888 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Could the MK I see refer to the Morgan-Keenan system though?
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3 weeks 3 days ago #107889 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hello again, Darren.

Well - the plot thickens.
I have checked out your various links on Vizie R.

But unfortunately I have checked Wikipedia to see if such a spectral class as MK exists. It appears there is not such a class.

MK stands for Morgan Keenan. These 2 men, whose names are William W.Morgan and Philip C. Keenan issued stellar classifications which has the following classes: O, B, A, F, G, K and M. M -class stars are the coolest in temperature and they are red.

One guy from Oregon seems to be checking out my latest post on Cloudy Nights. He did inform me about Johan Stein.
So I suspect he will be figuring it out for me and everyone else.
I have heard nothing more from anyone else except you, Darren.

But I'm jaded now. But I will check out further tomorrow Thursday.

Clear skies from Aubrey.
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3 weeks 3 days ago #107890 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
That clears that up then Aubrey!

Kindest regards,

Darren.
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3 weeks 1 day ago - 3 weeks 1 day ago #107893 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey, I hope you're keeping well. Over the past couple of days I've done some more work on that 35 Cassiopeiae B star. Since you posted the question about its colour it has really captured my interest, and has resulted in me learning lots about how to determine the colour index of stars. Not only does the webpage below explain the colour index of stars rather well, but it also describes how it may help us assign a colour classification to 35 Cassiopeiae B.  www.atnf.csiro.au/outreach/education/sen...otometry_colour.html For example, the Web page states that. CI = mb - mv.  The following Web page breaks it down into three steps to calculate the colour index:

www.astronomynotes.com/starprop/s5.htm

Here are the steps to determine the B-V color index:

1.Measure the apparent brightness (flux) with two different filters (B, V).

2. The flux of energy passing through the filter tells you the magnitude (brightness) at the wavelength of the filter.

3. Compute the magnitude difference of the two filters, B - V.

Using the data on SIMBAD for BD +63 175.0 / 35 Cassiopeiae B, we can enter the figures of 10.26 for B, and 8.43 for V into the formula i.e., CI = 10.26 - 8.43. This calculates as 1.83. Having watched some informative YouTube videos on colour / color index, and using the table on this webpage www.isthe.com/chongo/tech/astro/HR-temp-...table-byhrclass.html it would seem that 35 Cassiopeiae B is classified as an 'M' star. I have yet to work out whether it is an M4IV, M4V, or M4IV, that's assuming it is an M4 class in the first place. It may have to do with formulas on this page
astronomyonline.org/Science/Magnitude.asp ,

and something tells me Wien's law may help too.

 I'll keep you posted though.

 Kindest regards, and thank you for raising a most interesting question for us to engage with. 

Darren. 
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3 weeks 12 hours ago #107895 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hello, Darren.

I hope you are well. I am too, thank God.

I will be printing off that full page from the Australian website.
The next time you are with me at the Sugarloaf I am going to show my 3 books which are called Burnham's Celestial Handbook. In volume 1 there is a complete rundown of Stellar Classifications on page 80.
I never knew about the Colour Index (CI). I find the explanations very interesting.
Burnham uses stellar classifications extensively in his 3 books. Sometimes he gives spectral classes for both stars in double star system. Unfortunately he does not do so for 35 Cassiopeiae.
Over on www.cloudynights.com an Italian astronomer has been in touch and he is very knowledgeable, He has discovered that 35 B Cassiopeiae has a spectral class of M0V. The star is a red dwarf and, remarkably, it is much, much nearer than 35 A. The system is most certainly an optical double star. A is 390.55 parsecs from us; B is 15.43 parsecs away.
Now regarding different M class stars: there are stars with spectral classes M1, M2, M3, M4, M5 and M6. But there are all variable stars. All none variable red stars appear to be labelled M, M0 or M0V.

What we have not yet discovered is the explanation about the number after the initial spectral class - which in this case is M. I don't think the letter after the number is all that important, e.g, V in this case. But I may be wrong on that.

So once again, I thank you very much for providing, not just me, but the rest of us on www.irishastronomy.org with all this wealth of information, Darren.

By the way, I do have a busy day ahead of me. But I am going to do some observing on Saturday night in my back garden. The skies are going to be really clear.

Blessings to you and your family.

Aubrey.
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3 weeks 11 hours ago #107898 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey,

Very many thanks for your message, and delighted to read you're doing well. All is good this end, a little more sleep would be nice, but as they say 'all clouds have silver linings'. ..more about that later!

I'm looking forward to seeing those handbooks. Also, that's fascinating about the distance of those two stars, hey?

Not sure what is meant by an 'optical double' I'm afraid. Perhaps you could enlighten me about this phenomenon when we next meet.

From reading around stellar classifications this week it seems that the roman numeral after the number has to do with luminosity. Here is one of webapages I found on the topic:

astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/M/Morgan-Keenan+Luminosity+Class

And the number itself (0, 1, 2 etc.), refers to a subclass of stellar classification. For example, this page ( www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~pac/spectral_classification.html ) states that  "A star midway through the range between F0 and G0 would be an F5 type star. The Sun is a G2 type star."

In other words, the number seems to indicate where along the spectrum the star is.  

Best of luck with tonight's session. I've not had had a chance to take the scope out since the little lad arrived. However, the late nights on the sofa have provided me with lots of time to (1) practice with the digital imaging software 'GIMP' to try to enhance my sketches, and (2) to read around the theoretical aspects of astronomy. How much of it I actually understand is a different story : ) 

As always, kindest regards,

Darren.
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2 weeks 5 days ago #107903 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hello, Darren and everyone else.

A major discussion has utterly erupted over on www.cloudynights.com regarding our mystery star 35 B Cassiopeiae over the last 2 days.
Serious heavyweights are now heavily involved in sorting out the spectral class of this star. Thankfully it has all been very well tempered.
Serious amateur astronomers from Colorado, Arizona and Oregon (USA), Australia and Milan, Italy have weighed with their opinions.
The Australian amateur thinks the star is somewhat similar in spectral class to Gamma Crucis which is a bright star of magnitude 1.7 to 1.8. That means it is slightly variable after all. Indeed the guy from Arizona has now stated that both stars of 35 Cassiopeiae are variable.

My main man from Colorado has appealed to any spectroscopist on Cloudy Nights to give a professional decision as what is the true spectral class of 35 B Cass. He has also asked for an estimate of the star's distance from Earth. He reckons it is much more further away than it has been alleged from other contributors on the Cloudy Nights website. There seems to be no end of discrepancies on our star.

But I must point out I cannot accept any credit in sorting out this enigmatic star. You see, a previous guy from California asked me specifically to observe 35 Cassiopeiae. He told nothing regarding its colours. I had to check them out myself.
None of us on Cloudy Nights have heard from him since 31st August. Why that is the case I don't understand. He normally is on the website every 2 or 3 days.

But either way, please watch this space. I will bring news to you all as soon as I can.

Kind regards,

Aubrey.
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2 weeks 5 days ago #107905 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey,

I was looking forward to hearing from you about 35 Cassiopeiae B. It is incredible to read how the conversation has developed, and it's rather exciting to think where the conversation might go next! Something tells me there will be several more twists and turns in this story. 

Whether you feel you deserve credit or not (and I for one believe you do); you've brought together a team of international astronomers who want to contribute to a discussion. In my eyes that's impressive, and regardless of whether we receive a definitive answer to colour of this wondrous star "It is not the answer that enlightens, but the question.” – Eugene Ionesco. 

For this reason, thank you for asking the question, and for sharing your passion for astronomy with us. 

Clear Skies, 

Darren. 

p.s. I hope everything is OK with your California based astronomer.
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2 weeks 3 days ago #107907 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hello, Darren and everyone else.

At last it is official!!!
The spectral class of 35 B Cassiopeiae is: K4i.
The star is otherwise known as SAO 11709.
Its magnitude is 8.6.
That's a little bit fainter that Neptune.

A bloke called Robin from England has a spectrograph.
He used his equipment on our mystery star.
The star is a giant orange star.
Its distance is 700 parsecs.

All that's left for me to say is to update all your literature and label SAO 11709 as having a K4i spectral class.

I have congratulated the man for publishing his findings on Cloudy Nights.
I have also encouraged him to make his discovery known to the professional community.

Many thanks to all from Aubrey.
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2 weeks 3 days ago #107908 by Fermidox
Replied by Fermidox on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Robin Leadbetter is well known in the BAA and frequently contributes to spectroscopy discussions. He has published work in professional journals and manages to be both thorough and yet readable. Well done Aubrey on stirring this interesting debate.

Finbarr.
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2 weeks 3 days ago - 2 weeks 3 days ago #107909 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
That's excellent news Aubrey, and a BIG well done on brining this exciting news to us. 

A K4i star!!! Not the 'M' star like so many of us thought it was... fascinating! What were your thoughts on the classification?

I have thoroughly enjoyed the journey you've brought us on over the past week and a half Aubrey. 

Keep your posts coming, they're always so interesting. 

Chat soon and clear skies, 

Darren. 
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2 weeks 2 days ago #107910 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.

Fermidox wrote: Robin Leadbetter is well known in the BAA and frequently contributes to spectroscopy discussions. He has published work in professional journals and manages to be both thorough and yet readable. Well done Aubrey on stirring this interesting debate.

Finbarr.


Hi Finbarr. 

I never knew Robin's surname until you told us. 
By the way, on his website it is spelt Leadbeater. 
But thank you for sorting us out. 

Three Hills Observatory is where his scopes are located. 

Kind regards, 

Aubrey. 
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2 weeks 2 days ago - 2 weeks 2 days ago #107911 by flt158
Replied by flt158 on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.

Until_then-Goodnight! wrote: That's excellent news Aubrey, and a BIG well done on brining this exciting news to us. 

A K4i star!!! Not the 'M' star like so many of us thought it was... fascinating! What were your thoughts on the classification?

I have thoroughly enjoyed the journey you've brought us on over the past week and a half Aubrey. 

Keep your posts coming, they're always so interesting. 

Chat soon and clear skies, 

Darren. 


Initially I was greatly surprised by its new spectral class K4i. 
But subsequently I knew it made sense. 

35 B Cass is a mostly orange star after all. 
There is only a bit of red showing through. 

So thank you very much, everybody, for showing your interest in 35 Cass. 
There is still plenty of time to observe our star over the coming months. 

Sadly I won't be able to view the constellation for 1 or 2 months soon. 
Cassiopeia is directly overhead, and it is enormously difficult to arrange my alt - az mount for that position.

The next time I will be putting up my scope under clear skies I plan to observe M103 in full detail and find one more carbon star nearby. 

Clear skies,

Aubrey.  
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2 weeks 1 day ago #107913 by Until_then-Goodnight!
Replied by Until_then-Goodnight! on topic 6 easy doubles in Cassiopeia.
Hi Aubrey, 

Many thanks for your message. Enjoy M103, it's a real beauty! 

Clear skies, 

Darren. 

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