Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)

16 years 11 months ago #997 by jhonan
Having already compared Irish and UK prices for Celestron telescopes, I will be extending the survey to include US suppliers. The inital results look interesting.

Note: exchange rates are correct at 6th Nov 2003. Also, US or UK suppliers might not ship to Ireland. The US prices are from Pro Astronomer

Celestron 60AZ
Ireland (A&S) - €252
UK (David Hinds) - €128
US (Pro astronomer) - €95

Nexstar 80GT
Ireland (A&S) - €952
UK (SCS) - €469
US (Pro astronomer) - €305

Nexstar 8i
Ireland (A&S) - €4,107
UK (SCS) - €1,873
US (Pro astronomer) - €1,137

Nexstar 11 GPS
Ireland (A&S) - €6,728
UK (SCS) - €4,325
US (Pro astronomer) - €2,625

John.

Everyone in Ireland buys Meade, and they all buy them from Lidl.

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16 years 11 months ago #998 by Paul Tipper
Replied by Paul Tipper on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)
It'd break your heart, wouldn't it? :cry:

Paul Tipper,
South Dublin Astro. Soc.

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16 years 11 months ago #999 by michaeloconnell
Replied by michaeloconnell on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)
US dealers are now starting to ship Celestron accessories internationally.
OPT, for example, has changed it's website to state that only Meade products cannot be shipped outside the US. Previously, this policy included Celestron but appears to have changed around the same time as Tasco went bust. I've had no problem getting Celestron accessories from the US.
As for a scope, it would be worth enquiring again. At the very least, they will ship it. Whether the warranty would still be valid I don't know. Would be worth asking.
Michael

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16 years 11 months ago #1000 by Paul Tipper
Replied by Paul Tipper on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)

OPT, for example, has changed it's website to state that only Meade products cannot be shipped outside the US.
Michael


Can you give the full web address of OPT?

Paul Tipper,
South Dublin Astro. Soc.

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16 years 11 months ago #1001 by michaeloconnell

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16 years 11 months ago #1002 by albertw
When I was considering purchasing a scope last year I wrote to meade and celestron in the UK and to their US headquarters about the price discrepancy. Celestron did not reply, actually celestron never reply to my emails!, but both BC&F and Meade in Irvine did reply with explanations. So at least Meade is willing to try and justify the prices.

I've uploaded the document that Meade sent to explain the prices to the files section.
www.irishastronomy.org/user_resources/fi...1068132272-meade.pdf The fact that they were able to send me a pre written word document tells me that they get this query a lot. The reply from BC&F i have included below.

Cheers,
~Al

Subject: Re: Prices in uk compares to USA.
From: "BC&F" <dave AT meade.uk.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:37:57 -0000
To: "Albert White - SUN Ireland" <albert.white AT sun.com>

Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you but it's a very busy time
ofyear.
First let me point out that it's always cheaper in America. The system
meade operate in the USA is for them to drop ship to the customer on
behalf of the dealer.i.e. the dealer will not carry stock but place the
order with Meade who will then ship it to the customer. That way the
dealer can take a a smaller margin, it's more like a commission payment.
Out side the USA Meade will only ship through an importer( BCF) who
operate the warranty agreement and service dept. We then sell through a
network of shops. So in fact you have one two extra people involved.
Before the goods get to you.

The cost of the telescope in the USA works out as follows.

Telescope 995
UHTC 150
PACKING 95 You cant get out of this payment as it's part of the cost
of Meade putting it in the box.
6% TAX 74.40 YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY THIS
Total $1219.40
You then need to add freight and duty and insurance to get it to the U>I.
$1219.40 + 18% = $1438.89 divide by the dollar (1.5) = £959.26.

That £959.26 gets you to the air port you will then need to pay
clearance charges and the VAT on total amount at 17.5%. I don't have a
figure for clearance so I would guess at about £10.00.
£959.26+£10.00+VAT =£1138.88.

Obviously things are changing all the time i.e. the dollar and shipping
costs but the above is a good average figure.
The other point is that if you direct import the telescope will have no
warranty with us and you would have to send it back to the USA at your
cost and pay for the return.
We think that he telescope is great value for money in the U.K but it
will always appear better in the USA.

I know it's not what you wanted to hear but I hope it helps.

Regards
Dave Lawrence FRAS
----

The scope in question in an LXD55 10" which has a list price of £1249 in
the UK. I recieved a similar letter from Paul Hobbs, Director of Export
Sales at Meade. On top of that Meade dont let their US retailers export
scopes, and they will only support scopes bought in the US and shipped
privately over if you ship the scope at your expence back to the factory
in california. However there is a mail in the IFAS archives from a
couple of months back from someone who did import an LX200 from the
states successfully and substantially chearper.

None of this explains the mysterious 20% for all goods that cross the
irish sea however!

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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16 years 11 months ago #1003 by John OBrien
Replied by John OBrien on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)
Has this price comparison been adjusted or normalized to account for taxes and shipping?

Perhaps include a second amount to account for problems, i.e. if the scope needs to returned because it's faulty. Maybe this amount could be set at 1/10 the cost of shipping (off the top of my head). This 1/10 would be an assumption that 1 in 10 scopes have a problem (I'm sure it's way lower then that!). I would just like to see something more realistic in these comparisons.

Also, there are some web sites that will take an order for a company that won't deliver international. They will order the goods locally, have them deliver locally and then ship them on internationally.

Here's one: www.toship.com/

Can't vouch for them though...

- John

"We are the music makers ... and we are the dreamers of dreams." - W.W.

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16 years 11 months ago #1004 by albertw

Has this price comparison been adjusted or normalized to account for taxes and shipping?

Perhaps include a second amount to account for problems, i.e. if the scope needs to returned because it's faulty. Maybe this amount could be set at 1/10 the cost of shipping (off the top of my head). This 1/10 would be an assumption that 1 in 10 scopes have a problem (I'm sure it's way lower then that!). I would just like to see something more realistic in these comparisons.


Some shops, and OPT is one, offer a service to check the scope in shop. Basically you pay them $150 and they put the scope together check the optics and make sure it works. This should eliminate most of the out of the box problems. After that the most likley things to fail are electronics, which can be shipped back relativly cheaply.

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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16 years 11 months ago #1005 by Paul Tipper
Replied by Paul Tipper on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)

Has this price comparison been adjusted or normalized to account for taxes and shipping?

Perhaps include a second amount to account for problems, i.e. if the scope needs to returned because it's faulty. Maybe this amount could be set at 1/10 the cost of shipping (off the top of my head). This 1/10 would be an assumption that 1 in 10 scopes have a problem (I'm sure it's way lower then that!). I would just like to see something more realistic in these comparisons.


Some shops, and OPT is one, offer a service to check the scope in shop. Basically you pay them $150 and they put the scope together check the optics and make sure it works. This should eliminate most of the out of the box problems. After that the most likley things to fail are electronics, which can be shipped back relativly cheaply.

Cheers,
~Al


Of course, you keeping adding on these not insignificant charges (shipping, insurance, import duty, $150 for in-shop checking, etc.), and it won't take you long to get back up to the Irish (or at least the UK) price!

Paul Tipper,
South Dublin Astro. Soc.

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16 years 11 months ago #1006 by jhonan

Of course, you keeping adding on these not insignificant charges (shipping, insurance, import duty, $150 for in-shop checking, etc.), and it won't take you long to get back up to the Irish (or at least the UK) price!


Nexstar 11GPS
Base price (US) €2,625.00
Scope checking charge €150.00
Shipping (UPS COD) €400.00
Insurance €100.00
SubTotal €3,275.00
Customs duty (4.2%) €137.55
VAT (21%) €716.64
Clearance charge €20.00
SubTotal €4,149.19
+10% 'Problem Insurance' €414.92
Grand Total €4,564.10

So, we're now slightly over the UK price (€4,325) - and that's including things like the '10% problem insurance' that was suggested here. But - we're still €2,164 short of the Irish price :!: . Can anyone suggest anything else I can add in to the calculation to bring it up to the correct price? - I'm obviously missing something. How about a 20% "You-should-have-bought-it-from-A&S surcharge" ? :P Come on lads! - We need to find that missing 47% from somewhere! :lol:

I have taken the import duty at 4.2% as this applies to TARIC Code 9005800000 - Binoculars, monoculars, other optical telescopes, and mountings therefor; other astronomical instruments and mountings therefor, but not including instruments for radio-astronomy Exchange rates as at today. Delivery charge of €400 is as quoted by 'sight and sound' (US supplier) I've added in €100 shipping insurance for good measure (although this is probably included by UPS as part of the delivery charge) and I've thrown in 20 euro airport clearance charge as well (not sure how much this actually is)

Of course, (I'll state this again) - Suppliers outside of Ireland may not ship certain products to Ireland due to dealership restrictions.

John.

Everyone in Ireland buys Meade, and they all buy them from Lidl.

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16 years 11 months ago #1007 by John OBrien
Replied by John OBrien on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)

Come on lads! - We need to find that missing 47% from somewhere! :lol:


That would be the "dark matter" effect!

:lol:

"We are the music makers ... and we are the dreamers of dreams." - W.W.

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16 years 11 months ago #1008 by albertw
Replied by albertw on topic OPT
Hi,

I got this back from OPT ragarding their shipping. I asked as an example what the shipping of a C9 1/4 would be.

Cheers,
~Al


Original Message
Subject: International shipping quote
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:26:01 -0800
From: Internet Sales <internetsales AT optcorp.com>
Reply-To: internetsales AT optcorp.com

Hello Albert,

Thank you for inquiring with OPT. Yes, we can ship just about anything except for Meade products internationally.

We can use quite a few different options for shipping outside the US. The main options we use for large packages are USPS and Airborne Express. We much prefer Airborne as we have hardly ever had a problem with them, they get there faster, and they treat the telescope like it is supposed to be treated. The downside is that they are more expensive than USPS.

Shipping a C9.25 to Ireland will vary based on if you mean a complete system (with the equatorial mount, counterweights, etc) or just an optical tube assembly. A C9.25 complete system via USPS will cost approximately $350-400 to ship to Ireland. Airborne Express would cost somewhere in the $400 range.

Shipping the optical tube only would be significantly less. USPS would be in the $120-150 range for USPS and the $175 range for Airborne Express. These values are not exact, but should be relatively close estimates.

Please let us know if you have any questions or if there is anything else we can help with. Thanks!

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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16 years 11 months ago #1009 by michaeloconnell
Replied by michaeloconnell on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)
Ha Ha Albert..great minds think alike (or is that fools seldom differ :wink: )
Anyway, earlier today I had sent an e-mail to OPT enquiring about the Celestron Nexstar 11GPS. This is their reply:



Hello Michael,

Thank you for inquiring with OPT. Our favorite shipping option for larger aperture telescopes is Airborne Express. They are fast, less expensive than UPS and much more reliable than USPS. I obtained a quote from them and it would cost approximately $350.00 to ship a Nexstar 11 GPS to Dublin, Ireland. That means that it should be able to ship to most areas of Ireland for under $400.00. All of our shipments are fully insured.

You may want to check out the PAT that we offer. It is a nice additional to international shipments to guarantee that everything is functioning properly before is is sent internationally. Here is the link to the PAT info:

www.optcorp.com/cart/ProductDetail.asp?PR_ProductID=1775

Please let us know if you have any questions or if we can be of further assistance.

---Ben Hauck

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16 years 11 months ago #1010 by jhonan
The way things are looking here, it'd be almost worth our while chartering a plane over to OPT and pick up a few scopes and accessories! :lol:

John.

P.S. Bart - Looks like the server time has gone screwy again.

Everyone in Ireland buys Meade, and they all buy them from Lidl.

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16 years 11 months ago #1015 by albertw

P.S. Bart - Looks like the server time has gone screwy again.


Yea can you get them to set it properly and enable NTP this time :)

Cheers,
~al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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16 years 11 months ago #1018 by voyager

P.S. Bart - Looks like the server time has gone screwy again.


Yea can you get them to set it properly and enable NTP this time :)

Cheers,
~al


Not with this hosting company. *mumble mumble mumble*

My Home Page - www.bartbusschots.ie

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16 years 11 months ago #1020 by albertw
Jimmy Miller posted this to the mailing list

Cheers,
~Al



Hi John

As you advise, interesting, but in an effort to be completely fair to
Celestrons dealer here there are some mitigating circumstances which are at
least contributry factors.

In Ireland we are the end of the transport line ( we are simply not allowed
buy from the US and could not buy in bulk anyway ) which you must take into
account.

We have additional transport costs which can be substantial, in particular,
if the scopes are not held in bulk stock here which, especially with the
more expensive scopes, normally does not happen.

On top of this, their is an extra 3.5 % vat ( not to include duty from the
US - who will not supply us direct anyway ).

Speaking on behalf of Andromeda Optics ( we are not nominated suppliers of
Celestron ) and having some experience in the backroom costs / area
agreements it is not quite as black and white as it appears.

That said, we are Meade dealer here and supply at roughly the same costs as
the UK taking into account vat and transport differences( in some cases we
are actually cheaper ), so to argue with myself, it can be done.

From the suppliers point of view, the Irish Market is vastly smaller than
the UK / US and therefor anyone supplying scopes/equipment here does not
have the same advantages of bulk buying/sales to the same extent ( it is a
virtual specialist market here compared with a popular hobby status even in
the UK as is obvious from the amount of outlets in Ireland v UK ).

Also, if everyone in Ireland is looking outside Ireland to source their
equipment instead of putting pressure on the suppliers here (including
Andromeda Optics )to supply with diversity and economy , keeping/developing
the business/supply here then all the comparisons and compalints in the
world aren't going to change anything.


****************************************************************************
******************

ALL THAT SAID, NOBODY CAN ARGUE WITH THE FIGURES AND THE EXISTANCE OF THE
PROBLEM FOR US ALL HERE.

****************************************************************************
******************


Keep up the pressure.

Regards

Jimmy

PS.

Without volunteering to become an agony aunt maybe there is something we (
Andromeda Optics )can do if anyone is interested in making suggestions.

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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16 years 11 months ago #1022 by jhonan
Thanks for the reply Jimmy.

No matter what way I cut these numbers I still can't work out the massive markups on Celestron - even versus the UK, and after taking into account VAT, customs duty, delivery etc. And the VAT works differently from the way I'm calculating it anyway (I have calculated it as a double-charge, if you're importing for trade you only pay once, or not at all if you have zero-VAT status)

If I'm going to spend a substantial amount of money on something, the first thing I do is hit Google and compare prices. To be honest, that's how I started doing these price comparisons in the first place. It's not my intention to drive customers away from Irish astronomy suppliers, I just inform them that there's no reason they should be paying 150% more than they have to.

And as you pointed out - Not every supplier in Ireland whacks on such a high margin. Everyone has a right to make profit, so if someone is importing scopes from say Orion UK (like astroireland.com seem to do) and adding a bit on for their trouble, then fair enough - That's what keeps a company in business. But you'd have to question someone who adds, say, €2,000 per unit... :roll:

Now, onto Meade. A very popular brand - Great scopes, and up there with Celestron for market share (at least in the US). What is the problem in Ireland? - The problem is that 'Everyone in Ireland buys Celestron and everyone buys them from....' well, we know the rest.

The real problem is that 'Noone in Ireland knows they have another option besides Celestron' ! - Admittedly the Celestron dealer has a slick marketing campaign and obviously a budget behind it. But to give you an example, I get emails every day from people asking for telescope recommendations. I can't recommend Celestron (unless they import them from the UK, and the suppliers won't deliver to Ireland anyway), and I haven't been recommending Meade because I only found out you were the supplier last week, and I don't know what your prices are! So the other options are North Down, AstroIreland.com (Orion UK / Europa scopes), or UK/US import. After seeing the Irish Celestron prices I was fearing the worst for Meade. If you say you can supply Meade at roughly the same cost as the UK, I'm sure people will live with an acceptable markup versus the UK prices (and the other overheads you mention) - You're running a business after all! Go for it.

At the moment, customers out there are doing their own sums and working out that US import is their best option. If you (or someone) can tell us your Meade prices, or even put up a page on your site with Meade products, I would be very happy to direct people to your site.

Awareness is the key - If people know they have an option, the word will spread quickly. The monopoly and overinflated prices we are experiencing can only last for so long. Why don't we have PC suppliers in Ireland making 200% margins? - Because Dell came in and stabilised the market. Competition has this nice effect on things... 8)

Even something as simple as a Meade pricelist / product page would be a great start, and we can take it from there.

Regards,
John.

Everyone in Ireland buys Meade, and they all buy them from Lidl.

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16 years 11 months ago #1049 by michaeloconnell
Replied by michaeloconnell on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)

Nexstar 11GPS
Base price (US) €2,625.00
Scope checking charge €150.00
Shipping (UPS COD) €400.00
Insurance €100.00
SubTotal €3,275.00
Customs duty (4.2%) €137.55
VAT (21%) €716.64
Clearance charge €20.00
SubTotal €4,149.19
+10% 'Problem Insurance' €414.92
Grand Total €4,564.10

Are you sure you need to VAT when it arrives here? I may be incorrect (ok, replace thet "may" with "definetly!" :wink: ) but my understanding was that if you pay sales taxes in the US/Canada, you don't have to pay VAT here unless you re-sell the telescope and the it's the buyer that pays it to you, who then needs to pay it to the taxman. But I'm probably wrong. Anyone have a contact phone no./e-mail address for the customs office just to confirm??
Michael

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16 years 11 months ago #1053 by jhonan

Are you sure you need to VAT when it arrives here? I may be incorrect (ok, replace thet "may" with "definetly!" :wink: ) but my understanding was that if you pay sales taxes in the US/Canada, you don't have to pay VAT here unless you re-sell the telescope and the it's the buyer that pays it to you, who then needs to pay it to the taxman. But I'm probably wrong. Anyone have a contact phone no./e-mail address for the customs office just to confirm??
Michael


You're right - You should only have to pay VAT once i.e. you don't get 'double-taxed'. So for example, if you're importing from the UK, if you've paid VAT over there, you only pay import duty here. If you don't pay VAT in the UK, you pay VAT at point of entry into Ireland - Different rules apply to companies (zero vat status applies if you import a certain amount every year) That's my understanding anyway. All the docs are on the revenue website. www.revenue.ie

For all these numbers I was quoting above - I was 'overestimating' everything. I didn't want anyone saying 'ah, but you forgot to add on X, Y and Z' - The real numbers are a lot less (and you can probably take off the 10% 'Problem Insurance' as well... :wink:

John.

Everyone in Ireland buys Meade, and they all buy them from Lidl.

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16 years 11 months ago #1059 by albertw

You're right - You should only have to pay VAT once i.e. you don't get 'double-taxed'. So for example, if you're importing from the UK, if you've paid VAT over there, you only pay import duty here. If you don't pay VAT in the UK, you pay VAT at point of entry into Ireland - Different rules apply to companies (zero vat status applies if you import a certain amount every year) That's my understanding anyway. All the docs are on the revenue website. www.revenue.ie


Technically you are meant to pay the VAT once, to the Irish Government. You are not supposed to be charged by a UK company UK vat rates. Try ordering a video from amazon.co.uk and they will charge you the irish vat rate for example, books are exempt.

Practically this doesnt come up much as companies, I presume, find it easier to charge you vat at their end and put a green sticker on the box. But some places in the US in particular do not charge you tax and so you get a phone call from the customs folks when the goods get here looking for money.

Thats been my experience anyway.

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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16 years 11 months ago #1060 by jhonan
Okay, I've emailed the revenue about the VAT/Import duty thing to get a definitive answer on this. I'll let you know the reply (if any :roll: )

Email addresses I used are: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I tried their phone number, but it wasn't working: (01) 878 8811

John.

Everyone in Ireland buys Meade, and they all buy them from Lidl.

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16 years 11 months ago #1062 by albertw
[Forwarding from the old (depreciated stop using it already!) IFAS mailing list]

Hi John

Please don't take my apparent defence of the prices as a criticism, quite
the contrary, I am agreeing with you but just fleshing out the facts which
cannot be disputed.

This is Ireland remember ( maximum profit is a religion , that said,
although we are a business we hold close the ideal that the promotion of the
hobby is high on our agenda, its not about selling scopes at all costs but
value for money and horses for courses ie. an LX 200 GPS is not what we
suggest to novices.

The idea behind Andromeda Optics is to keep our costs down and in doing so
we should be able to compete with the SHOPS ETC. and still supply all
enquiries.

But our biggest problem is awareness.

I will arrange a copy of the MEADE scope price list for you ASAP but it will
be on the site www.andromedaoptics.com within the next week or so.

MEADE - The full range is available together with all the accessories.

Our apologies, we have been very remiss in putting MEADE and other details
on our website but this is being rectified at the moment.

We intend to offer Monthly SPECIAL OFFERS to the clubs directly but are
conscious of the fact that SPAMMERS are the scurge of the net and need no
help from us in stressing everybody out.

We intend to contact each club separately to seek their confirmation of
interest.

We would be interested to hear from the populus / groupies of the IFAS
DISCUSSION GROUP as to whether they would be interested in us posting these
proposed SPECIALS to the discussion group site FOR YOUR/THEIR DELECTATION.

I cannot comment on one of the sites you mentioned as I honestly know
nothing about them ( they appear to be one of the UK shops looking for an
outlet here but I could be compoletely wrong - either way, competition is
good ) but we know N.Down well and they more than reccommendable.

Re ASTRO EXPO - We will not be displaying at this show as we have
not been invited although we would be
happy to attend if we were.

In saying that, anything you need we can supply either ex stock or by order.

We are distributors for MEADE
SKYWATCHER (also in the process of
being added to the site)
HELIOS
INTES MICRO
INTES

SOLARSCOPE

and also supply OPTICRON
B.C & F.Astro Engineering products

and others

We supply other brands as well but without wanting to bore you.....

I will revert with info on eyepieces available as we have quite a few and I
will have to get them organised in such a way as to be able to e-mail them
to you.

Talk to you soon and compliments on your action.

Regards

Jimmy
Andromeda Optics

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 11 months ago #5792 by dmcdona
Folks - all these numbers are are a little confusing and I'm not sure exaclty how to calculate how much I'd have to pay for the AP1200 mount I *may* order in the next two weeks.

Firstly, as far as I know there are no AP dealers in Ireland so I'm guessing that he mount comes direct from AP (my email notification is with them directly anyway). So I'm not importing through a dealer.

Second, if I pay the US tax, does the 21% IRL VAT go away?

Third - if the answer to the above is that I don't pay US tax but pay IRL VAT, then is this on the goods only or do I have to pay VAT on the shipping, insurance etc?

Fourth - I assume that the import duty (4.2%) is due only on the value of the goods.

Last - to add a twist, does anyone know what the numbers are to import to the UK/NI? (ie VAT and import duty). I would of course be using the mount up North and wouldn't dream of bringing it back down here. :!:


Dave

ps - anyone know how I can contact Jimmy Miller - I've been trying to get through to Andromeda Optics for a few days now.....

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15 years 11 months ago #5793 by dave_lillis
Replied by dave_lillis on topic Re: Ireland versus UK versus US prices (Celestron)
Its not like an american tourist here who can buy stuff tax free, that wont work for us in the US.
The price you see on an american site is the price you'll pay.
You'll pay import duty of 21% on a parcel if the value is over 175E on entering the country.

BUT, I've heard that if the item is a gift then the tax is different, I donk know the exact details, does anyone?

Dave L. on facebook , See my images in flickr
Chairman. Shannonside Astronomy Club (Limerick)

Carrying around my 20" obsession is going to kill me,
but what a way to go. :)
+ 12"LX200, MK67, Meade2045, 4"refractor

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