Folks - looking to buy a new PC. Key requirements:

1. Red hot graphics processing required
2. Lots of storage
3. Top end monitors (yes, I'd like two)
4. Tons of room for upgrades
5. Rather than worry about software issues, I'd prefer a windows machine but would consider a machine that can at least emulate windows with no performance issues.

Budget - a fair chunk of money available (over 2K)

Any tips of manufacturers to look at and manufacturers to avoid?

If anyone builds PC's to spec, I'd love to hear from you.

Cheers
Dave

Ok, Dell is probably the safest bet.

Despite the apparent need, I don't think you need much special in the
way of a graphics card - for image processing you need raw CPU power,
so go for a Dual Core with the possibility of getting quad-core upgrade later.

Think about having non-LCD monitors. LCDs weakness is colour definition;
CRTs are better for this. Get a single CRT and one LCD maybe ?

Probably the biggest single need is disk space for merging lots of images
and data. Examine getting external disks from komplett.ie ; you can
bring them outside and plug them into a laptop while observing ...


Regards
Alastair

If you're gonna spend that much cash and you really want a good solid machine and good graphics etc then you need to at the very least consider two of the Mac offerings:

- The iMac
- The MacPro (formerly the PowerMac)

These machines don't need to emulate Windows, they can run windows natively both using a boot manager and using virtualisation so you can use both machines at once.

With the iMac you have a lot of choices, they start at just over a grand for the 17" version but if you want to go for the stunning 24" version (you won't need two monitors when you have one of these, played with one at work and it has all the screen you need/can use). You can keep shoveling in RAM and disk until you hit your budget .... or just spend your extra money on a second monitor!

The MacPro is a more 'traditional' looking computer, you have a tower etc. Again this is highly customisable up to totally insane specs like 16GB of RAM! Apple monitors are very very nice but they are not cheap so if you go the MacPro router I'd probably grab baseline MacPro for 2K and then spend the rest of your budget on one or more screens of what ever size you want from komplett.ie.

The nice thing about the MacPro is that it's more customisable than the iMac. Yon can upgrade your RAM and disk in the iMac but that's it really. Some people see that as a problem but I don't. These machines come with the latest and greatest of everything so they will last in terms of CPU and graphics for a long time. RAM always gets cheaper so that's what you're going to want to add to and you can very easily. I also get all my peripherals as USB/FireWire and put nothing inside my machine. This has the advantage of allowing you to move stuff from machine to machine without any bother and you can keep all your perifferals whenever you change machine.

For a manufacturer, try Dell, they are the only make I'd touch, I would not get one from a computer shop you might see on the high street. The spec always looks good until you scratch the surface and see that the mother board and RAM are dog slow.
For parts try, komplett.ie, they have good processors and high end graphics cards, dual monitor cards are very nifty and are what I use here.
I would avoid LCD monitors if you are going to be doing image processing. I'm going to build a machine in the next 6 months or so and source all my parts from komplett, the best thing is that the longer you wait the higher end processor you can get, as they get cheaper on an almost monthly basis.
SATA hard drives have enormous capacity and are real fast, get a motherboard that can carry atleast 4 of these.

Windows vista uses alot of the PC video memory resources, I personally would not upgrade to it from XP.

From my own experience, I would be reluctant to buy a Dell. Can create upgrade problems later. Systems options can also be locked out to prevent you from adjusting hardware settings. I can understand Dell's point in this, but it caused me no end of problems when it came to upgrading the PC later.

I don't know a huge amount about PCs but I spent a little time learning a bit about them and managed to build my own about a year ago. Got all the parts off komplett.ie and am very happy with it. Never had any hardware problems. If you are not comfortable doing this, you can buy ready-made PCs off komplett.ie also.

I wouldn't rule out Bart's suggestion either re the Mac. Worth looking at now more than ever. Whether it would be better performing or better value than a PC, I can't say.

PS.
For the first time in over 3 years, intels top processors are beating the AMDs
Intels Core 2 Extreme QX6700 or QX6800 are getting great reviews but are pricey, also this processor is very over-clockable as intel have removed the clock ratio lock, have a look at
www.nordichardware.com/Reviews/?skrivelse=487
If you are totally mad and want to run the processor at -100 degrees Celsius you'll get nearly 5GHz out of this baby !

I don't know a huge amount about PCs but I spent a little time learning a bit about them and managed to build my own about a year ago. Got all the parts off komplett.ie and am very happy with it. Never had any hardware problems. If you are not comfortable doing this, you can buy ready-made PCs off komplett.ie also.

I've only ever built by home PC's (servers come from work ). Like Dave the last couple have been all parts from komplett. It might seem a bit daunting at first, but once you start to make some specifications your choices narrow down a good bit.

1. Red hot graphics processing required
- are we talking about top resolution games with all the effects turned on, or processing your archive of images here? The former needs a good graphics card (expensive=good here usually!, but check reviews). The latter needs more CPU processing power. Some applications may make use of multiple processors some may not. I have no idea how the likes of photoshop maxumDL perform on multiprocessor systems. I would be surprised if the likes of photoshop could not take advantage of 64 bit multicore processors though.

2. Lots of storage
define Lots. You can get 500Gb disks almost as standard now. Internally these can be combined to create say a 1000Gb drive that is mirrored so even if a disk fails you'll be ok. Some motherboards will be able to do this, otherwise you may need to trust the OS. Thats not what I'd consider lots though, we got a new toy delivered recently with 24TB of internal storage

3. Top end monitors (yes, I'd like two)
I've gone from two back to one again. Then again the one is a 24" widescreen. The 2 21" CRT's took up too much space.Granted I have 10 workspaces open in gnome...

4. Tons of room for upgrades
- buy a big case with a big power supply and a decent motherboard!

Have a look through komplett though. When you select say a Processor the site will show you what Mainboards are compatible with it. From there you can see which board is the most upgradeable etc. That makes speccing out things much easier.

Oh and fwiw my desktop at work, which is the best thing I could lay my hands on is one of these www.sun.com/desktop/workstation/ultra40/index.xml , windows compatible ;-)

For the first time in over 3 years, intels top processors are beating the AMDs

I'm looking forward to getting some intel gear delivered at some stage this year! For home use AMD still has the price-performance sweet spot though. Right back to my nice 16core sparc CPU's

I wouldn't worry too much about being able to upgrade your system at some time in the future. Today's red-hot machine will be so out of spec and out of date by the time you >need< to replace it that it would be simpler to just buy new again.

Above all, regardless of what processor / graphics card / other bells and whistles you get, max out the mother-board with RAM. This above anything else will make it fast - especially if you go for Vista or other RAM gluttonous OS's.

You might check out the cost of building your own PC from scratch. That way you can choose exactly what hardware you get from the best of what is on the market today. Check out the PCW website for comparative reviews and compatibility of mother-boards, processors, RAM, graphics, and all the other bells and whistles. Building your own is not difficult and can be quite competitive on price.

Phil.

Dave Mac,
it sounds like you might be wanting to build a medium-end server but have it act as a high-end PC. I have my set up like this at home I built from scratch over 3 years ago, and it is still almost as fast of the 64 bit dual core machines of today. Plenty of grapics, digital sound, RAM, superior mobo, and a couple of RAID back-ups, and loads of storage... you won't buy all that as a unit. You can, however, build it together yourself quite easily with some guidance. Platforms are Windows and Linux Fedora Core. But, you'd have to raise your budget to about 3K. Still, it will last a very long time as a top spec, as I've already shown you.

Lotsof options have been given to you here. If you want to hear about recommended manufacturers of components, there are many.


Seanie.

From my own experience, I would be reluctant to buy a Dell. Can create upgrade problems later.

Tis true. Dell boxes are custom so even replacing a power supply can be a problem. Best bet for a high-end machine is to build. I can help out with that. I'll spec up a decent box for 2k from komplett and dabs.ie tomorrow and post it here so you can do a comparison with an equivalent from Dell.

For imaging CRT is best. You could get a CRT and an LCD - that's what I currently have myself but I'm replacing the CRT now - just waiting on my 2ms LCD to be delivered. You don't need a top range video card but you will need a decent one. A mate is selling an 1900XT second hand. I'll get a price off him - be cheaper than buying a new one and it's a very good card.

Regarding mirroring - RAID 0+1 will give you redundancy without out losing too much. 3*500Gb drives will give you 1Tb with a redundant disk. Make sure you get a motherboard that supports it - I wouldn't trust OS mirroring personally - prefer hardware.

How about the OS? Does it have to be Windoze? Ubuntu is a good novice Linux distro and you'll find there's plenty of software available too. And even then you can run Windows in a virtual PC too for things that don't have a linux option.

Dave Mac,
it sounds like you might be wanting to build a medium-end server but have it act as a high-end PC. I have my set up like this at home I built from scratch over 3 years ago, and it is still almost as fast of the 64 bit dual core machines of today. Plenty of grapics, digital sound, RAM, superior mobo, and a couple of RAID back-ups, and loads of storage... you won't buy all that as a unit. You can, however, build it together yourself quite easily with some guidance. Platforms are Windows and Linux Fedora Core. But, you'd have to raise your budget to about 3K. Still, it will last a very long time as a top spec, as I've already shown you.

Lotsof options have been given to you here. If you want to hear about recommended manufacturers of components, there are many.


Seanie.

What you're describing there is what's called a Work Station. Server level kit in a desktop.

That's exactly what the MacPro is. You get 8 hard drive bays (I think), 8 RAM slots, a server mother board and server CPU in the form of a dual core Xeon (or two). And because it's mainly used by graphics proffessionals it comes with great graphics cards too!

Have the pre-cursos of these machines at work, it's getting on a bit now but it's still head and shoulders above a regular PC. These mahcines just keep going!

Bart.

Folks - thanks for the info so far...

I have to say, the Apple MacPro is almost TOO yummy... If I purchased this Bart, would I have to go out and buy totally new software or could I simply run it as a Windows machine (or have my Windows programmes emulated somehow)? I guess I've invested a fair bit in Astro software that mostly only runs under windows...

It seems heresy to run an Apple as a Windows box - is there emulation software that would still allow my windows software to run in the Apple OS environment?

Also, would lower processor speed and more RAM be better than slightly higher processor speed and less RAM?

OK - too many questions... I would definately stretch the budget for this beauty. Oh, and two of those 20" monitors :shock:

that said, I won;t rule out self build - the only reservation there is a warranty. Also, with my electrical knowledge extending to three-pin plugs only, I'd need someone to build it for me.

On a final note, I understand the difference between CRT and LCD. Surely the top end LCD's are very close to CRT performance... Besides, since its mostly science I'll be doing, I'd be happy with mediocre looking pretty pictures.

I guess my key requirements, in order, are:

Reliability
Processing speed
Graphics speed (for two monitors - I'm just so used to two monitors...)
Storage capacity

Given the MacPro I configured was just shy of 6K, I guess that's my budget (no point in scrimping eh?)

Cheers
Dave

I have to say, the Apple MacPro is almost TOO yummy... If I purchased this Bart, would I have to go out and buy totally new software or could I simply run it as a Windows machine (or have my Windows programmes emulated somehow)? I guess I've invested a fair bit in Astro software that mostly only runs under windows...

It seems heresy to run an Apple as a Windows box - is there emulation software that would still allow my windows software to run in the Apple OS
environment?

You have a few options here and none are mutually exclusive:
1) use Bootcamp to make a dual boot system with Windows and OS X (free)
2) buy Parallels and run Windows natively within OS X. This is not emulation, it is virtualization. You don't get a performance hit as such. What happens is that BOTH OSes are running at the same time, Windows within a window in OS X. It's obviously hard on resources because you have TWO opperating sytems but you can do amazing things with it. It has a thing called coherency mode where your windows programs don't sit in a window anymore but become part of OS X so the two opperating sytems merge. It's well cool. (costs about 80 euro)
3) _IF_ your applications are supported you can use CrossOver to run them straight in OS X. Not all apps work but when it does work it's really cool. You don't need to install windows or anything. This is a good option if you don't have a Windows CD lying around. This is what I use. I don't run many apps in it, just WinRAR and Internet Explorer because they are the only Windows Apps I use. (costs about 50 quid)

So, in shot, yes, you can run windows, no bother at all and you even have some choices

Also, would lower processor speed and more RAM be better than slightly higher processor speed and less RAM?

RAM all the way with me. These modern processors are just rediculously fast, even a 2gig dual core will do just fine. You'll hardly really notice a speed increase with a slightly faster CPU but more RAM you will notice, especially if you go for parallels. I'd recommend 2GB. Haivng said that I use 1GB on both my machines and it works fine and I mutli-task the hell out of them but if you're going for really shinney then at least 2GB. Oh ... and if you plan to run Vista on this baby then you'll need 4GB regardless of what machine you decide to get. But I really wouldn't advise Vista. The best windows out there at the moment is XP service Pack 2.

OK - too many questions... I would definately stretch the budget for this beauty. Oh, and two of those 20" monitors :shock:

that said, I won;t rule out self build - the only reservation there is a warranty. Also, with my electrical knowledge extending to three-pin plugs only, I'd need someone to build it for me.

That's the one problem with self build. I self built a PC for my parents and it went pear shaped and it took ages to track it down and fix it. We couldn't call tech support because there was none for a home made jobbie!

However, I have self build loads of machines for myself over the years and that has worked well for me. When it goes well you save money and get EXACTLY what you want. If it doesn't go well you'll loose time and effort. I guess it comes down to how valuable your time is and how comfortable you are. My last two machines were not self-built because I wanted machines NOW with no hassle and a warranty should they cause trouble.

On a final note, I understand the difference between CRT and LCD. Surely the top end LCD's are very close to CRT performance... Besides, since its mostly science I'll be doing, I'd be happy with mediocre looking pretty pictures.

A high-end LCD is more than up to the job. Mac's main customer base is creative proffessionals and they ONLY sell LCDs. This has not cost them customers because the pros are happy to sit behind their Apple Cinema displays! Sure, a cheap bottom of the line LCD from a cheap bottom of the line Dell sucks but hey, you get what you pay for!

I guess my key requirements, in order, are:

Reliability
Processing speed
Graphics speed (for two monitors - I'm just so used to two monitors...)
Storage capacity

Given the MacPro I configured was just shy of 6K, I guess that's my budget (no point in scrimping eh?)

Cheers
Dave

a 6K MacPro *drools*

That must be some machine ... how much RAM and Disks did you cram into that baby?

A few years back I specked up my dream powerMac (as they were called then) and it came to 15K .... but I think the 4 30" displays may have been over-kill

Bart.

OK, here is what I configured:

2 * 2.0 GHz Processors
2 GB Ram

I got a bit lost on the graphics cards - what would you recommend? I'll probably run two 20" monitors

3 * 500 Gb hard drives
1 * SuperDrive (would you recommend two? - its only 100 quid extra...)

Wireless - I was stumped so I chose both bluetooth and Airport (80 quid)

I didn't bother with the modem or the fibre channel...

I chose the wireless keyboard and mouse.

I kept the OS as is - OS X and didn't bother with the server software.

The only software I added was iWork '06

I chose two 20" monitors and the AppleCare protection plan.

Any thoughts? Given what I will be doing with the machine, is there any over/underkill (other than the price - 5.8k)

Also, another techie question - I'll still have a couple of networked Windows machines - will that cause any problems?

Cheers
Dave

OK, here is what I configured:

2 * 2.0 GHz Processors
2 GB Ram

I got a bit lost on the graphics cards - what would you recommend? I'll probably run two 20" monitors

3 * 500 Gb hard drives
1 * SuperDrive (would you recommend two? - its only 100 quid extra...)

Wireless - I was stumped so I chose both bluetooth and Airport (80 quid)

I didn't bother with the modem or the fibre channel...

I chose the wireless keyboard and mouse.

I kept the OS as is - OS X and didn't bother with the server software.

The only software I added was iWork '06

I chose two 20" monitors and the AppleCare protection plan.

Any thoughts? Given what I will be doing with the machine, is there any over/underkill (other than the price - 5.8k)

Also, another techie question - I'll still have a couple of networked Windows machines - will that cause any problems?

Cheers
Dave

Anything there that strikes me as overkill .... just iWork ... I presume you
have MS Office? iWork will probably be a real office killer one day but I don't think it is yet. It has an excellent powerpoint replacement, a brilliant word replacement but no spreadsheet yet. Also, open office runs just fine on the Mac.

I'd also question getting two 20" wide-screen monitors. One takes up most of your field of view as it is ... and there's no way your field of view is two wide-screens wide! I'd propose one big wide screen monitor not small ones. Have a look at the resolutions, you'll soon see that with one 23" you'll have more screen real-estate than you know what to do with! Even with the 20" you can have two regular width browsers next to each other without any problems so it's already like an old double-headed display.

As for graphics cards, I'm no expert but any card offered with the MacPro will be a good card. Even the base model of these beasts are always very high end. My old one at work was a base model (with some extra RAM added) and it's still an outstanding machine. I'm defintely a power user and I'm still not pushing this thing to its limits!

Also, I wouldn't rule out the 24" iMac and a few external FireWire drives. You'll get a great machine for less money, granted, it won't remain top-of-the-line as long but with the money you save you can upgrade a year sooner and still save money in the long-run!

Having said that, if my budget could stretch to a PowerMac I'd get one in a heart-beat. They are stunning machines. They are also almost silent which is amazing considering their power. Apple went to Lockheed Martin (I think) for the design of the fan blades. The design Lockheed came up with has two fans which are out of phase with each other in such a way that their sound waves cancel out to almost silence! The reason Apple went so mad on keeping these things quiet is that they are often used inside recording studios where you really can't have noisy equipment! That's just one example of the attention-to-detail Apple put into these beasts, if you want to see perfect engineering in practice you should open one up and have a look at how well organised and easy to get at everything is on the inside. This makes upgrading parts later trivially easy. I think even my mum could do it!

I guess what I'm saying is you get what you pay for and perhaps two 20" screens is a wee bit of over-kill.

Bart.

While we're on the subject...
When shopping for a new screen, what does one look for when seeking an LCD screen? Is it image brightness, response time, contrast ratio, or other stuff??

While we're on the subject...
When shopping for a new screen, what does one look for when seeking an LCD screen? Is it image brightness, response time, contrast ratio, or other stuff??

All of the above I guess. I tend to just get a screen that I have seen before and that gets good reviews. Nothing like seeing it in action to make sure it's up to scratch.

So, to get the ball rolling, I've had a Samsung SyncMaster for a while now, not sure exactly how long but it's been a while anyhow, probably over two years. It has never given me even the smallest bit of trouble and things look good on it. A few of my mates have bought more recent veresions of the same model and they too have nothing but praise for it. The great thing is it was one of the cheaper ones available on www.Komplett.ie!

At work I have an Apple Cinema display and all I can say is these guys are the cream of the crop. They are not cheap but they have come down a lot in price so they are now reasonably priced.

I'm sure others will be able to give you recommendations too.

Bart.

1 * SuperDrive (would you recommend two? - its only 100 quid extra...)

Wireless - I was stumped so I chose both bluetooth and Airport (80 quid)

I didn't bother with the modem or the fibre channel...

Also, another techie question - I'll still have a couple of networked Windows machines - will that cause any problems?

Just realised I forgot to answer these points.

I think one superdrive is plenty unless you plan on spending a lot of time duplicating DVDs that is.

You should definitely get bluetooth but I never did see the point in getting WiFi (or airport as Apple calls it) on a desktop. If you have a wired network and this machine will be on it then don't bother. Also, good call on getting Apple Care. It gives you three years peace of mind. I look at my Apple computers in terms of how much they'll cost me per year considering I always get the three years Apple Care with them. So, my nice shinny laptop came in at 1K per year so I thought that was a fair price for the amount of use I'd be getting from it.

Finally, as for your network question. No problem at all. Macs play nice on Windows networks, they even come with Windows File sharing for both sending and receiving files as standard. At work we have loads of Macs on our mainly windows network and you can rest assured, it's not the Macs that cause us trouble!

Bart.

While we're on the subject...
When shopping for a new screen, what does one look for when seeking an LCD screen? Is it image brightness, response time, contrast ratio, or other stuff??

Mike,
response time is not that important unless you're a serious gaming buff and need the quick graphical reflexes on, say, a combat game etc without the refresh lines becoming visible.

Contrast ration -> do you mean aspect ratio? 16:9 17", 4:3 15" etc.

Contrast Ratio, as in 2000:1 or 1600:1 etc.

BootCamp will not work on the Imac24 at present, I have one running OS ver 10.4.8 and will have to wait for the next software release (Leopard ) which is due within weeks, other intel based Macs may allow windows to be installed however.
www.macfixitforums.com/showflat.php?Cat=...amp;o=31&fpart=1
It is an excellent machine however and the monitor is something else, good luck with your search, I will not be looking at Vista as far too many problems are being experienced right now, Ubuntu Linux will have an exciting new release in mid April, I run the latest version dual booting with Xp on a dell inspiron 6000 and it is excellent, must get some astronomy related software for the imac

Charles