K-Tec

BBC: Met Sat Images: How aircraft contrails form cloud

  • mjc
  • mjc's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Main Sequence
  • Main Sequence
  • Posts: 470
  • Thank you received: 20
Please see time sequence

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8309629.stm

Related (and older) article in New Scientist:

www.newscientist.com/article/dn7796-plan...ifting-altitude.html

So we may have two problems - contrail-generated cirrus clouds contributing to global warming by trapping heat - and making life awkward for astronomers!

The Cloud Appreciation Society petitioned British Prime Minister on environmental issue - got a "not enough data - need to focus on what we know about" type resposne (there is an embedded link to pm.gov.uk)

cloudappreciationsociety.org/petition-against-contrails/

This is all new to me. The later two links there being a few years old - I was not ware that there was some believe that planes can cause cloud formation.

Mark
12 years 4 months ago #83037

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 3298
  • Thank you received: 57
Mark, I can tell you categorically that they do.
I live in Shannon and it is very noticable on a clear day
the ammount of haze and later on cloud that planes cause.
The satellite images I have seen before and there is
even a famous one (that I can't find right now) of a photo
that was taken from the ISS that shows it better than that BBC link.

I'm not sure (maybe someone in the know will let us know)
but I wonder is there some marker that craft passing over Ireland from Europe
use at Shannon because there ALWAYS sees to be high alt planes over here.
My Astrophotography
Shannonside Astronomy Club __________________________________________
Meade ETX-125PE, Bresser 10 x 50 Binos & Me Peepers
12 years 4 months ago #83038

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 8851
  • Thank you received: 237
After 9/11, there were a few days where there were no planes in the skies anywhere in the US, an exceptional opportunity for environmentalists.
One thing they immediately found was that daytime temperatuires were immediately 0.5c higher and nighttime temperatures were 0.5c colder. Contrails make a differance by trapping nighttime heat and reflecting daytime heat, contrails effective act like cloud cover.
Dave L. on facebook , See my images in flickr
Chairman. Shannonside Astronomy Club (Limerick)

Carrying around my 20" obsession is going to kill me,
but what a way to go. :)
+ 12"LX200, MK67, Meade2045, 4"refractor
12 years 4 months ago #83041

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 9637
  • Thank you received: 544
Dave_Lillis wrote:

After 9/11, there were a few days where there were no planes in the skies anywhere in the US, an exceptional opportunity for environmentalists.


Photo of the day before September 11th 2009:



:ohmy:

Seanie.
Midlands Astronomy Club.
Radio Presenter (Midlands 103), Space Enthusiast, Astronomy Outreach Co-ordinator.
Former IFAS Chairperson and Secretary.
Last edit: 12 years 4 months ago by Seanie_Morris.
12 years 4 months ago #83062

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 3298
  • Thank you received: 57
Wha!?
That's insane!
Seanine,
is there a pic for 9/11?
My Astrophotography
Shannonside Astronomy Club __________________________________________
Meade ETX-125PE, Bresser 10 x 50 Binos & Me Peepers
12 years 4 months ago #83065

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • michaeloconnell
  • michaeloconnell's Avatar
  • Offline
  • IFAS Astronomer of the Year 2009
  • IFAS Astronomer of the Year 2009
  • Posts: 6315
  • Thank you received: 287

Replied by michaeloconnell on topic Re:BBC: Met Sat Images: How aircraft contrails form cloud

Original article in Nature re theory of increasing temp due to contrails:
facstaff.uww.edu/travisd/pdf/jetcontrailsrecentresearch.pdf

Recent study arguing against this theory:
www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/climatechange/2009/0...tudy_challenged.html
12 years 4 months ago #83071

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • michaeloconnell
  • michaeloconnell's Avatar
  • Offline
  • IFAS Astronomer of the Year 2009
  • IFAS Astronomer of the Year 2009
  • Posts: 6315
  • Thank you received: 287

Replied by michaeloconnell on topic Re:BBC: Met Sat Images: How aircraft contrails form cloud

Frank_Ryan_jr wrote:

Mark, I can tell you categorically that they do.
I live in Shannon and it is very noticable on a clear day
the ammount of haze and later on cloud that planes cause.
The satellite images I have seen before and there is
even a famous one (that I can't find right now) of a photo
that was taken from the ISS that shows it better than that BBC link.

I'm not sure (maybe someone in the know will let us know)
but I wonder is there some marker that craft passing over Ireland from Europe
use at Shannon because there ALWAYS sees to be high alt planes over here.


Frank,

From what I remember of a Nat. Geo. program on the Lockerbie plane disaster, there are different corridors for traffic to take - bit like motorways - across the UK and Ireland. From Heathrow, for example, there are a number of corridors which planes can take across UK/Ireland to get to the US. If PAM AM Flight 103 had taken a different route instead of going over Scotland, it could easily have blown up over Ireland or just off the west coast. At least that's my understanding anyway...

Some useful google earth maps here.
192.206.28.84/Website/ANP%20AERONAUTICAL%20INFORMATION.htm
I think what you might be after are European UPPER routes.

and this:
www.avsim.com/atco/latcc.htm

Michael.
Last edit: 12 years 4 months ago by michaeloconnell.
12 years 4 months ago #83073

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 9637
  • Thank you received: 544
Frank_Ryan_jr wrote:

Seanine,
is there a pic for 9/11?


None that I could find, but there was one for Day 2 after the 3 days hiatus was announced, but the area covered was not the same as the example one above, Frank. All the rage in the news was the findings that the temperature rose 3 degrees Farenheit per day in those 3 days due to the lack of cloud cover, probably caused by airplane contrails.

Seanie.
Midlands Astronomy Club.
Radio Presenter (Midlands 103), Space Enthusiast, Astronomy Outreach Co-ordinator.
Former IFAS Chairperson and Secretary.
12 years 4 months ago #83096

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • mjc
  • mjc's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Main Sequence
  • Main Sequence
  • Posts: 470
  • Thank you received: 20
Frank, I found this for Sept 11. It has time lapse sequence of a small number of milatry contrails (one being Airforce 1). Together they formed a large cirrus cloud covering 24,000 square miles. Original source NY Times article October 30th 2001. It starts with an image of more typical traffic (you may need to zoom to see detail)

www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/NY_TIMES_103001.jpg

Michael - thanks for the links - I obtained the paper cited in the second reference and I have to confess I'm suspicious of the quality of the first report that was published in Nature.

While it is not proven (if one sides with second paper) I tend to side with Dave's comment.

My initial interest in this was from the astronomical viewpoint - do contrails really form cirrus clouds - it appears the answer to that one is, unfortunately, yes.

It's been an eye opener - thanks lads.

Mark
12 years 4 months ago #83102

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.057 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum