RTE & the Astronomy voice of Ireland

FWIW I'll tell you why DM gets all the air time he does.

1. He sends out hundreds of press releases every week.
2. He is personally known to the vast majority of the national newspapers and is a former presenter on RTE.
3. He is the chairman of the largest astronomy club in this country. A club BTW which this organisation's constitution excludes. Thousands of people *choose* to pay their sub to AI/A&S.
4. He gets in their face.
5. He's damn good at it.

*Fact* Without DM/AI publicising the event, the vast majority of the general public who stood outside last night watching geminids would have been indoors watching TV, blissfully unaware of the spectacle unfolding above them. As it turned out I personally lost count of the people coming up to me at home and in work asking about the geminids specifically because they heard DM talk about it on the radio.

I'll say it again, DM gets butts off chairs and out into the cold air. The fact that he makes a living doing so is essential. You cant do that full time without either being filthy rich in the first place or by making a living from it while you do it.

I'm sorry in advance if I offend anyone, just have to call is like I see it. It just seems everytime I come here theres another DM/A&S/AI whinging session started. Forgive my suggestion, why not get rid of that exclusionory article from your constitution. Allow AI to apply and then allow AI's resources to help promote your local astronomy clubs/events too.

Clear skies,

Dave.

dave,
without trying to start an arguement here, just to let you know when the first meeting was held on the way to founding IFAS there was a long discussion on whether mr. moore should be invited to join. out of this discussion it was decided that we should decide what constituted a club. this is why the IFAS constitution is the way it is. Also it was decided to allow the same number of representatives regardless of the size of club to prevent endless bickering over who should have what number of representatives. it is also to prevent one club dictating things to others. as mr. moores organisation operates on different principals to us he cannot join us at the moment, he was not excluded on purpose or is not barred in the future if he were to adopt our principles.
stephen.

Seanie Morris. I don't think so. If AI did not exist, then I think most of the other clubs who have tried to get into the publics eye would have stood a better chance. I make reference to my post in the Politics thread about this, where Radio 3 won't even acknowledge its own local astronomical society in Tullamore (I think its called TAS... ).

Just a couple of thoughts, Seanie. If Toyota did not exist, Nissan would sell more cars. If Tesco did not exist, Dunnes Stores would attract more customers. The fact is, they do exist and Nissan and Dunnes cope with it. Similarly, AI does exist, so TAS have to accept this fact and live with it, not bemoan that it's there!

I sometimes wonder how many clubs around the country would actually be trying to get into the public eye now if AI didn't exist. I suspect many committees would still be sitting on their collective backsides concerned only about their select bands of members.

though I know some who will be frowning at me at COSMOS!

Surely not!

Gordon

So why isn't anyone getting off their butt and competing in this particular marketplace? I know it has been done in the past by members on this board and continues to be done. But you (and you know who you are) must be frustrated at reaching dead ends - hence all these posts.

We have two choices:

1. Continue to moan, whinge, slag-off etc and waste energy
2. Spend our energy on promoting our hobby

If we don't like the way AI operates, then as Gordon rightly mentions, let's get out there and compete - just like Nissan and Toyota.

There's a lot of energy going into all these posts about AI and IFAS. Why don't we collectively channel that energy into something more positive.

So, as a start I am going to pledge to this board that I will join an IFAS club and I will do whatever *I* can to help promote our collective hobby. Hell, I'll join *ALL* IFAS clubs if that would help!

Dave

Why should IFAS change its constitution from a perfectly reasonable stance of requiring a club to be democratic? If it did would AI be interested in joining? I've asked AI about this before but the discussion didn't really get off the ground. I've seen very little evidence that they are at all interested in being involved with other clubs or ILPAC, in fact I've seen the contrary. I don't think AI being in IFAS is a prerequisite to "allow AI's resources to help promote your local astronomy clubs/events", I'm quite happy to have AI help promote and support ILPAC for example as it is!

Your absolutely right Al, AI or anyone else has no right whatsoever to demand how IFAS runs its internal affairs. However the flip side of that is that IFAS should not presume to tell AI how its committee is to be formed either. Would you honestly expect AI/A&S to allocate its time, money, resources to organisations who are affiliated to an organisation which excludes it and other worthy organisations from membership? Come on! If someone slaps you would you hand em a tenner?

To flip the question can I suggest that AI get rid of its current setup. State its relationship to A&S clearly, not _require_ subscribing to a magazine from A&S to be a member and allow members to elect a committee? The people connected to AI would I assume quickly elect DM as president, definatly as PRO. A&S would be the magazine which you _could_ subscribe to (at a discouted rate for club members perhaps), they could promote the shop also as the club shop since the treasurer could show how much money the club got at an AGM. DM could continue to run A&S as he sees fit. Put simply, they state they are the national club, so why not give members a say in its operation?

The relationship between AI & A&S is clear and is no secret. AI could not afford to exist in its current state without A&S. I remember back when I was Vice-chair of AI back in the mid nineties before A&S existed AI was always in the red, we couldnt afford to publish what was then 'Astronomy Ireland' magazine. We survived often only because of the genourosity of some comittee members (not just DM), and a few bob generated from events. Often the cost of running an event outweighed the revenue, and we ended up further in the red. A&S provided the perfect solution. DM could make a living, A&S funded AI and in return AI supported A&S. AI's money worries were over and everyone was happy. As far as AI's comittee is concerned, every single member of AI can join the comittee if they wish. When I joined AI first I think I was only about a year in the club when I became treasurer and then later vice chairman. If any AI member wants to suggest something they are more than welcome to.

[1] Connaught Star Party is coming up soon, lets discus over a drink at that eh?

I really look forward to chatting with you there, hopefully about the less dreary stuff too!!!!!!!!

[2] I'm not on the IFAS committee btw! And was a subscriber to A&S when the IFAS constitution was written!

I'm not on the AI comittee anymore either. Just another amateur like you guys.

Clear skies,

Dave.

I don't think so. If AI did not exist, then I think most of the other clubs who have tried to get into the publics eye would have stood a better chance. I make reference to my post in the Politics thread about this, where Radio 3 won't even acknowledge its own local astronomical society in Tullamore (I think its called TAS... ).

I suppose we'll never know Seanie. However my feeling is that generally smaller clubs can be often 'clannish' and perhaps seen as a bit aloof by joe public. This isnt a criticism, just a feeling I have. I remember going along to a meeting of the IAS many years ago when DM was involved and even then found it quite offputting.

He even had the cheek to try and set up classes in Astronomy down here in Tullamore and Mullingar last year - I believe only because there are 2 local amateur groups already in existence (again, I think one is called TAS...) - he wanted to oust us! Why else would he try to do it?

Now Seanie, come on! How many times have you seen AI being accused of being 'Dubocentric' and then when they do something in your locality you say they are trying to oust you? You cant have it both ways?

He deliberately does not want to have anything to do with IFAS, local astronomy clubs, and helping the astronomically vulnerable (premium phone lines instead of web addresses etc)

ROFLMAO. Seanie, Its IFAS who excludes AI!!!!!! Not the other way round. Like I said to Al White, you can't seriously expect AI to support and promote clubs and organisations (like IFAS) which excludes it.

Doesn't bother me Dave, sure look at some of the stuff I have typed about this!

But believe me, I also do not intend to offend anyone, though I know some who will be frowning at me at COSMOS!

:lol:

Seanie.

I do hope none of you guys get personally offended by my comments. I also hope to get to talk astronomy with you too Seanie, at a star party sometime.

Clear Skies,

Dave.

So, as a start I am going to pledge to this board that I will join an IFAS club and I will do whatever *I* can to help promote our collective hobby. Hell, I'll join *ALL* IFAS clubs if that would help!

Dave

Spot on Dave. Actually I have been to the SDAS meetings on many occasions. The only reason I havent been recently is that circumstances at home mean I never have a whole evening to dedicate to astronomy at the moment. I am looking forward to attending every SDAS meet I can in the new year.

The whole reason I am being so vocal about this is because I also feel that too much effort goes into AI bashing.

To finish up I was talking to DM today (by email and a couple of things came up which directly answers some of the allegations levelled at AI/A&S in the past.

A&S Prices: Often I have heard it said here that A&S is too pricey. DM Says 'I'd beat David Hinds prices to anyone in Ireland (AI or not) who is running an astronomical organisation and generally doing good.
And you can quote me on that!'

Another quote by DM: 'I would say IFAS is a damned good website and a great concept.' I also feel sure that if IFAS allowed it AI would join (thats DG's opinion)

And another DM quote: 'You can also feel free to mention that people who contact AI and have seen irishastronomy.org tell us that they are turned off by all its negativeness. We've still sold scopes (one or two big ones) to people who have seen all the grumblings.'

So it works both ways.

I'm sorry about tall the long posts but I just think that I owe it to people who take the trouble to post on this to at reply to your specific points.

To finish my main motivation on this is not to promote AI in particular but to provide a little bit of balance to the discussion.

I really do wish all of you (and your clubs/organisations) the very best. I hope everyone has a peaceful and happy Christmas, and get lots of astronomy in there too guys.

Clear skies.

Dave.