Open Letter to AI/A&S

I was looking through the IAS site this morning, trying to find out whether or not there will be observing in Glencullen tonight, when I was struck by a couple of things. There's a real sense of history and carrying on a legacy in the IAS. There's longeivity. There's service, quality and professionalism. That's something you don't see in Astronomy Ireland which is a more ... plastic kind of astronomy. The grubbiness of constantly saying you can buy filter x from the shop and you really need it and so on and so forth detracts from the group/company/dictatorship/whatever. I was just struck by the quality and dedication of astronomical endeavour and commitment to a society that has been in Ireland, through various clubs and societies, since at least 1937. Like I said, things are actually quite good out there. Just musing in electrons I suppose!

PS - How do I get to Glencullen from Rathfarnham, and assuming it's a clear night should I? Or will be people be around Djouce?

I suppose we would not have expected any less from AI. I think AI or whoever they are these days, would have a major problem with SDAS, due to the fact that both myself and Jimmy Miller are the owners of Andromeda Optics, who are in direct competition with A&S/AI.

People would see immediately the exhorbitant prices they are being asked to pay for items from AI. By way of example, I saw Starry night pro for €180 odd with Armagh Planetarium and it was €230 odd with AI.

Further I suppose it is a bit rich for someone who has the stated aims of promoting Astronomy in Ireland to say that in order to do this, we are in some way in competition with AI.

As far as SDAS is concerned, we have members who are also members of the IAS, IAA and AI and feel in no way threatened by this.

AI by its nature is very isolationist and doesn't want the General Public to know that there is a very large community of astronomers out there and outside of AI.

I was speaking recently to a customer of ours who has been a member of AI for a fair lenght of time and I asked him had he ever heard of Whirlpool, Cosmos or IFAS and he said he didn't.

The problem is and I suppose he is right, if people become involved in the other clubs they will immediately see AI for what it is.

SDAS by the way is meeting on the 4th December at 8.00 pm (sharp) at Gonzaga College Ralelagh, and we will have talks by Dan Lynch on his trip to the Antartic for the eclipse and Philip Lardner on telescope making.

All welcome, no donations or entry fee required.

Wally Mee
Treasurer
South Dublin Astronomical Society.

SDAS and every other astronomy clubs is VERY welcome to attend, as is
EVERY other person. No exceptions.

Anyone from SDAS wish to comment on that?

Bart B.[/quote]

I am a former commititee member of the much maligned AI and I would like to add my comment(s) to this seemingly one sided debate.

AI was formed way back in 1990 and has grown since then.

It was formed when some members split from the IAS.

In the early 1990's a split occured in AI which resulted in most of the committee leaving, indeed some of these subsequently went back to the IAS and went on to become presidents and vice presidents of that organisation. The reasons for that split are open to debate but I will not engage in it.

When AI attended the Whirlpool Star Party in 1990 we asked to join the previous IFAS upon which we were told that it had been DISBANDED a few hours earlier!!!. At the time we heard that it was disbande because some people did not want DM sitting on the IFAS committee, which is interesting because DM was not going to be AI's representative but another AI committee member Ian Shepard was.

Since then AI has gone it's own way, and some people don't like that. Well Tough.

Even though I am no longer actively involved in AI as I was once, I still attend their meetings and other events. I still like to go out observing with the members occasionly and will sit down with them in a pub and enjoy the crack over a few pints.

When I clicked on this site a few weeks ago I started reading some of the comments concerning AI, A&S magazine and DM. I was shocked and suprised that their is still this element of anti AIness out there.

Instead of back biting and smart comments all the time can we all not get along and concentrate on other more worthy projects, such as observing together and so on.

As I said before I'm no longer involved in the political side of astronomy in Ireland. I got pissed off, and still am, over all this muck raking shit.

In a recent message someone described the volunteers who devote their time to AI as "TOSSERS". As one of those volunteers I object to being called that. The only "TOSSERS" are those who constantly harp on about their problems with AI.

Finally just a little reminder about the acceptanve aggrement we all clicked on when we registered with this site.


" www.irishastronomy.org - Registration Agreement Terms


You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed).

With That

Thanking you for your time.
SPACEBOY. :evil:

You just did

I got pissed off, and still am, over all this muck raking shit.

Charles

Hello Spaceboy, welcome on board and thank you for your comments. I hope that you don't feel that because you are a member of AI, or associated with the committee of AI that you are not welcome here. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I would like to draw an analogy for you between Irish astronomy and the era of space flight. A lot of people remember the glory days of Apollo, Skylab and so on. That's not the case for my generation. I remember Challenger, Columbia and the Mars rover. That's the highlight of spaceflight in my lifetime; a remote control car on Mars! Now back to astronomy. I bacame interested in astronomy, well properly interested anyway, just over two years ago. I don't remember the golden years before the split, and neither do a lot of current amatuers. We came along at a time when we had vague memories of "yer man with the beard off the Den". So while a lot of people are still pretty annoyed over "The Split", a lot of the rest of us are going "shut up! Get us another drink". We don't really care why the IAS and AI and then AI again broke up. We don't care how many iterations of IFAS there have been. All in all we don't give a toss about who are tossers, who called them tossers, and what exactly they are supposed to be tossing. It's in the past lads. Forget about it.

However tht does not mean that I am unconcerned about the future of the hobby in Ireland. I am a member of IAS and TAS because these organisations serve my interests best. Perhaps AI serves the interests of other amatuer astronomers better than these organisations do me. More power to it, but I doubt it.

I joined AI two years ago and lerned that there were three significant astronomical events in Ireland per year (2 star-b-qs and astro-expo) and that anyone who bought a Meade was cerebrally challenged (I dare ANYONE to say that to Gordon Nason!! :twisted: ). I missed seeing a lecture by John Dobson in Birr, which is forty minutes from my front door, because the "only Irish astronomy magazine" would not promote events from other groups. The horrible insular way of pretending that there are no other societies and that there are no other telescope manufacturers other than Celestron almost killed my interest in the hobby.

People, a LOT of people, in the Irish astronomical community are pissed off at AI by association. The real problem with AI is the fact that it is so closely intertwined with Astronomy & Space ltd and that many AI events which are designed for fundraising, seem to be A&S ltd events in reality. David Moore lies to people. I'll give you and example; he told subscribers to the AI mailing list that the only place to get truly accurate times for ISS flyovers was on his phoneline, and that Internet predictions were unreliable! Heavens-above is an award winning site which is totally reliable and, I suspect, the source for David's predictions. That was a lie told by him, either because he wasn't aware of how cool H-A is or he wan't people to ring his number. It implies that his motiviation is profit and not concern for informing Irish astronomers.

It's things like that which cause people to become annoyed with Astronomy Ireland, and by default its committee. Is the sole problem David Moore? I don't know and far be it for me to open myself to litigation from someone by daring to suggest that they are anything less than a kind and noble individual, and the closest thing to Christ living on earth at the moment.

Sever the links bewtween AI and A&S. Stop the confusion between who owns the shop and who runs the society. There are obviously a lot of things we fundamentally disagree on. I enjoy being in a society where I can vote for members of the executive, where I can request to see the accounts and where there is complete transparency in all aspects. That's just me and obviously it's not for you. I will agree with your basic point however. Those people should not have been refered to as tossers. That was unfair and unwise.

Thanks again for your comments and I look forward to hearing more from you on this topic and the range of others which we discuss freely here (and available in our shop - call for details). I hope you can see my perspective on The Split, and I would like to think that you can respect my differences of opinion with you on other issues.

Shane Culleton

Hi there,

Welcome aboard!

I was shocked and suprised that their is still this element of anti AIness out there.

I think for that comment that you see the issues with A&S/AI as being from disgruntled people from the splits that have occured in the past. And I am sure that some people still have strong feelings about these matters.

However, I have been a member of AI on and off since about 1992. In the end I got fed up with the club and its attitudes for my own reasons that had nothing to do with the politics of the past you refer to. For example, the prices charged by A&S to its subscribers were and still are exorbitant. I remember years ago writing to AI asking about going to an observing session with some other astronomers so I could look through some scopes, I was told about the Star-B-Q's and sent details of how much these events cost, I would expect a club to have free nights for members. I thought that perhaps having the members talk among themselves and organise their own sessions might be a good idea so I set up a yahoo mailing list and asked David Moore to put the address in the magazine after they closed their boards.ie fourm, he politely told me to remove the list immediately. etc.

And I think most of the comments in this thread refer to the present, telescope prices, lack of non-profitable information to potential astronomers in the public, and their exclusion of other clubs from their recent expo as they would be competing with them, lack of clairty on where the money raised goes etc.. These issues and ones like them are ongoing, and one can only conclude that AI acts in the best interests of A&S and not necessarily in the best interest of its subscribers. I doubt anyone here is interested in discussing at length the details of any splits in the past.

Instead of back biting and smart comments all the time can we all not get along and concentrate on other more worthy projects, such as observing together and so on

Agreed, and thats what a lot of folks are doing, there are more clubs sprining up than ever it appears and many people are joining the local clubs and going out observing with other astronomers. Though as shane points out AI seems to want to have an isolationist attitude and not get involved with other clubs for such events, pity. You dont say where you are from but if youre around the Dublin area get in touch with the SDAS, whos members regularly can be found in the wicklow mountains observing.

I think this site and the others cropping up, arcturus, the grouing number and popularity of star parties etc. are proof that people are getting on with things and not just `back biting`.

Cheers,
~Al