Me thinking out load on technical issues of new site

Not well it doesn't! I'm well pissed off with it at this stage. It's not too bad on these boards because the volume is still low enough for phpBB to cope and it is not too heavily modified so the frequent updates are still managable. However, my experiences on Mikado tell me that phpBB has some reall issues when it starts to get big or when you want to customise it a lot.

It works for this site, so why fix it? Do you believe this site will grow to the levels of the Mikado?

Java is a lot more open than Ruby or Dejango! Java is not an obscure language, it is the industry standard at this stage. I read an article a few days ago that put Java at 60% of enterprise sites.

Django is python web framework not a language see www.djangoproject.com/ .

I never said Java was an obscure, just may not as accessible to folk on this forum who may like to help with developing new functionality.
My guess is that is more php/perl/python/JS coders here than Java coders.
I think there is only about 3 people here who could write Java code.

60% of enterprise sites, probably but how many of those enterprise sites have a forum as their main functionality?

Of those 60% of sites, how many do you think were developed by a few guys building something in their own time? My reckoning is that the majority of those sites were developed by a team of full-time professional engineers.

Have you a team of full-time engineers for 6 months to pull off a Java-based website?

Given that this a fairly small site and there is only a handful of coders here, it maybe better to look at other web frameworks which are quicker to develop in.

OK, just some quyick points: (am supposed to be working)

1) The forum will grow, not as fast as Mikado but it will and we will hit into the same problems
2) This site will NOT have the forum as it's main thing, it does now but it won't in the future. There will be much much more here for people than just a bulletinboard system.

Well if you need somone to help out with the Java stuff, I can help where I can. Have no experience of struts, but am a Senior Java Developer at work, so could probaly help out in some small way

Well if you need somone to help out with the Java stuff, I can help where I can. Have no experience of struts, but am a Senior Java Developer at work, so could probaly help out in some small way

Excellent!

Hi,

There are only a couple of coders that have ever worked on this site. Bart obviously, and me (when I need to latch into the db's, or steal code for ilpac). There havent been too many offers to help out with coding. Though Bart, any new system should be able to handle multiple developers and those wishing to volunteer their skills. In the past I think dont think enough of the help that was offered was taken up; granted for technical/security reasons with the server.

So the decision on what languages or frameworks to use should not focus too much on a view of what language or framework has the lowest barriers to entry. Though since most computer science courses teach java and any CV's from grads and interns I've seen recently mention Java, I'd imagine that there are more people familiar with it than ruby etc.

Another reason not to just pick the option with the lowest entry level is that we are not a computer course. I dont expect that people who dont know php or Java would volunteer to help with the site. Similarly I wouldnt expect the webmaster to take on people who are not competent in whatever language is being used.

My concern here is not so much about what framework is used, afterall the number of people writing any code will be counted on one hand. What concerns me is how best to improve the content of the site. Again this is an area where we have a handful of people willing to help out I think, judging by the contributions to Arcturus and the handbooks. [ that should be read as a hint for more of you to write articles!]

What is needed is a site that has a forum, and some sort of CMS and/or some sort of wiki, picture galleries, calendar etc. Regardless of what language or framework is used we should not be writing all of these from scratch, most should be off the shelf. The effort involved should be roughly the same for any framework and language. The main work should revolve around tying these aspects together in some coherent way. I know bart doesnt like the idea of just grabbing products and tossing them together. But at the same time we dont want to re-invent the wheel. Especially if we basically want different coloured spokes than a wheel someone else already made!

If we can move to a system that allows us to do these things better than we can at the moment we should do it. (I'm waiting 3 years for a php calendar app tied into the members on the boards btw!).

If Bart feels that the site can progress to where I think we would all like to see it by using struts, postgres etc. then I'm happy with that. I just dont want to end up with a new site that still just basiclly has a forum and not much else in 12 months time.

The one requirement I would insist on is that whatever forum software is chosen that the current posts be migrated to it.

Cheers,
~Al

This is not strictly a contribution in any technical way but just to point out another perspective. I personally have no great persuasion as to which technology it better than another. I would point out (in passing, honestly!) that the US The Census Bureau use apache/php/mysql to backend their census data and I can't see that IFAS will generate that sort of load any time soon (but hopefully I am wrong). So superiority of technology is not (for me) a factor. I do however believe that you guys need to standardize on the best technology available to do the job that needs to be done. In all of this though do remember that the job that has to be done its not actually a technology exercise at all but it is to supply a tool to a bunch of astronomers to talk to each other. That tool needs to be light on management (technology, administration, operation) and heavy on front end utility. i.e.
1) Searchable for something you have only a vague memory of seeing (sometime)
2) Keeps some sort of permanent record as nears as is possible (there is a frightening thought))
3)Understandable to the uninitiated
4)So useful that it forms a focus (to draw people to it)

Finally don't be over zealous on the content control front, of course it has to be managed, but think in terms of fast mobile editorial response rather than a hierarchy of access.

The big thing is what happens to the content 20 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now. I accept fundamentally the inevitability of the advance of technology. Just make sure that those who come next will find the effort to retain the past easy and straightforward.

Sorry to be pedantic.

Frank C.