I would very much like for IrishAstronomy.org to partake in the web strike to protest against Software Patents being introduced in Europe.

This would involve replacing the site with a page that says "This page is down for one day in support of the Web strike against fostware patents in Europe" and a link to some more details.

Basically software Patents (as opposed to copyright) is a very bad and dangerous thing. It would allow large corporations to own "Ideas" and prevent anyone else from implementing other versions of the same idea. It would be an end to cometition, and end to small software companies and probably an end to the free software movement. In short it would be a disaster that would only benefit large multinatinal corporations and will hurt comumers and the little guys.

There boards would be directly affected. THey are run using free software, namely the Apache Webserver, PHP and a MySQL database server and the phpBB Buliten Board system. All these products are freeware and all would suffer if software patents were brought in.

Hence, I would urge you all to vote infavour of us partaking in this strike.

Bart B.,
IFAS Webmaster.

I agree with you bart as i think it is a slippery slope that this would lead us down. I teach Web design in a PLC College and if not for freeware software. Our software bill for that one subject alone would be running into the thousands. as it is i use all freeware HTML Coders and Image Editors. I for one am in total support of this

To say this would be the end of software such as mysql and php, is simply wrong. These groups, and mysql is now a decent sized company that charges for its software, have managed to start up and thrive in the US where these patent systems are in place, similarly they would not be threatened in europe.

Anyway I dont think this discussion or poll, or a closedown has any place on this astronomy board. Especially since the draft proposal has collapsed and will not be revisited unbtil later in the year at the earliest.

Cheers,
~Al

To say this would be the end of software such as mysql and php, is simply wrong. These groups, and mysql is now a decent sized company that charges for its software, have managed to start up and thrive in the US where these patent systems are in place, similarly they would not be threatened in europe.

Anyway I dont think this discussion or poll, or a closedown has any place on this astronomy board. Especially since the draft proposal has collapsed and will not be revisited unbtil later in the year at the earliest.

Cheers,
~Al

albert,
i think while the original proposition was defeated, our glourious government as head of the E.U. and the 51st state of america is trying to sneak it in the back door with sponsorship from microsoft before they leave office in june. i think it was on slashdot.org i read this.
stephen.

i think it was on slashdot.org i read this.

Yea but /. makes the `The Sun` seem like the bastion of investigative journalism

They took the ammendments out, but at the next reading in november sometime the governments(or comissioners or MEPS' or whoever!) can vote to have them re-instated I think.

Cheers,
~Al

i think it was on slashdot.org i read this.

Yea but /. makes the `The Sun` seem like the bastion of investigative journalism

They took the ammendments out, but at the next reading in november sometime the governments(or comissioners or MEPS' or whoever!) can vote to have them re-instated I think.

Cheers,
~Al

albert,
check out the links below.
www.abul.org/article191.html
www.elis.ugent.be/~jmaebe/swpat/councilanalysis/paper-en.pdf
i got an email from mandrakesoft saying the same thing.
stephen.

Anyway I dont think this discussion or poll, or a closedown has any place on this astronomy board. Especially since the draft proposal has collapsed and will not be revisited unbtil later in the year at the earliest.

Cheers,
~Al

The reason it's here al (and correct me if i'm wrong bart) was to ask if we on irishastronomy.org should join in the strike anf i think the pool speaks for itself.

Anyway I dont think this discussion or poll, or a closedown has any place on this astronomy board. Especially since the draft proposal has collapsed and will not be revisited unbtil later in the year at the earliest.

Cheers,
~Al

The reason it's here al (and correct me if i'm wrong bart) was to ask if we on irishastronomy.org should join in the strike anf i think the pool speaks for itself.

The reason it's here al (and correct me if i'm wrong bart) was to ask if we on irishastronomy.org should join in the strike anf i think the pool speaks for itself.

So the IFAS now has a policy on european software patents?

There is an election coming up, take it up with your MEP's and concillors. We dont have a strike when our government wont join the ESO, won't fund a radiotelescope in Ireland, but we are willing to strike over this?

So the IFAS now has a policy on european software patents?

There is an election coming up, take it up with your MEP's and concillors. We dont have a strike when our government wont join the ESO, won't fund a radiotelescope in Ireland, but we are willing to strike over this?

Good point actually...

S.

Hi,

Another point

If everyone else feels that this is worthy of a protest then could you just put a message on the main page or something. June1st is very close to June 8th and this site is listed in several places as the Irish amateur astronomy site, and contact point for the various clubs for the Venus transit so I really would not like to have people visiting a protest page (and then wandering off to astronomy.ie).

Cheers,
~Al

Another good point... actually...

For what it's worth I want to row in behind Al here. Maybe this isn't the place for a protest on European copyright laws. Striking would really be just spiting ourselves, especially with the increased traffic that's to be expected coming up to the transit.

Protest; Yes.
Strike; No.

I would have to disagree with Al.

We are users of free software, free software is hindered by software patents as is software written by small software firms (like mine!).

Some of you may be interested in this talk recently held on this very subject in trinity college: www.minds.may.ie/stallman.php

This is not an IFAS policy, this is a Bart policy! I do this voluntarily and put a lot of time into this place. I feel very strongly about this and I want to do this. I decided to give the users a say on this so here is the poll and what ever it says will go (the result can be Vetoed by the IFAS committee if they want).

The temporary page I would put up on the day of te strike wouldl contain a link to the www.venustransit.ie and the venus transit logo.

Bart B.,
IFAS webmaster.

In that case I would like to ask the IFAS committe to veto this proposal in advance and formalise the procedure for this type of action in future.

Not knocking Bart, but I understood that this site was being devleoped for the IFAS along the lines that your proposal set out over a year ago, the proposal which was appoved by the IFAS committee. I dont think this extends to giving you the right to take a personal protest against something using this site. (ok yes you have the passwords, which arguably gives you the right to do anything!).

Again I'm not knocking Bart, or the vast amount of hard work thats gone into the site, I just strongly disagree about this strike.

Cheers,
~Albert

Fair enough.

Consider it a request for a favour for me from the users. I feel very strongly about this and I also think that it affects the users of IFAS becaue we will always be reliant on free software which is threatened by software idea paptents.

I would just like to re-iterate that I would never dream of abusing the "power" I have on this site.

Bart B.,
IFAS Webmaster.

Given that people here seem to understand what this protest is about and judging by Bart's poll being very much in favor of this protest going ahead, surely democracy should hold true? Really, if people don't want to support this go ahead and vote against it!!!

This site would not exist without the use of free software, and not only that, a lot of astro related free software (registax etc) could also be affected. This is important.

Dostoevsky once wrote that "in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'"

I am for this strike.

Firstly, the strike is a full week before the transit, if it were 2/3/4 days before, then I'd say no.

Secondly, June 1st is on a Tuesday, they'd be more activity on a weekend day, Tuesday might not be busy until the evening ??

Maybe on the strike page, you'd have 1 liners for each club, simply each web address ??, would that be enough for the anti--strikers ??

Given that people here seem to understand what this protest is about and judging by Bart's poll being very much in favor of this protest going ahead, surely democracy should hold true? Really, if people don't want to support this go ahead and vote against it!!!

Over 170 people dont care by the looks of it. So 12 peoples opinions get to close down the site for the day?

Anyone got a URL for whoever is proposing and organising this strike?

Over 170 people dont care by the looks of it. So 10 peoples opinions get to close down the site for the day?

Isn't that how voting works? If you care you vote one way or another and in a democracy you respect the views of the majority.

I get the feeling that some noses have been rubbed the wrong way :?

Isn't that how voting works? If you care you vote one way or another and in a democracy you respect the views of the majority.

Yea, but you can read it as 170 people dont think this has anything to with an astronomy board.

I get the feeling that some noses have been rubbed the wrong way :?

Working for a large corporation I can see the _need_ for patents and we also invests heavily in `open source software`, and I have written software under the GNU license. I can see both sides of this argument. Personally I think some form of patent system is needed in Europe, not a copy of the US one mind you (eg amazons doubleclick is a prime example of something that should never have been granted), it needs to be accessable, thorough, and the officers need to know the subject matter, and lawers need to stopped from over-generalising the patents.

The software we use is US based where its flourished despite crazy software patent laws, so the free software would die argument goes out the window. If people want to protest a better tactic would surely be to pester the people looking for your MEP votes, and they DO need to be pestered to ensure we dont go down the US road with this.

Anyway, pm or email me if you want to discus it further.

astronomy anyone?

Cheers,
~Al

Ok Al, you've lost me now!

Seriously, I think there's only a handful of people here who fully understand the whole issue and they most likely work in the IT industry and would be far more knowledgeable than the average Joe Soap like myself or 99% of the members here.

To the average irishastronomy.org user, the issue to me is simple:
The IFAS webmaster feels an issue has arisen which, from his professional experience, he considers a threat to the future of how this website will operate. He has asked for us to vote Yes or No to a proposed form of action.

Personally, I would have to row in behind Bart on this. He's served us very well and if he feels the proposed action is worthy of the issue then I'm willing to trust him. True, I genuinely do not fully understand the issue, but I'm willing to apply a little trust. Besides, how much harm will one single day do? This site has often been down for more than one day but this level of debate never arose on any of those previous occassions.

However, I think the debate has been well worth while; not so much as to what the nitty-gritty of the issue is but rather how such actions should be implemented in future. In an ideal world such actions could perhaps, in future, be raised at metings of the IFAS committee where they can be approved or rejected. However, as I understand and feel free to correct me here, these meetings may not always be held at regular and frequent intervals throughout the year. Perhaps in those circumstances where action may be required more urgently, the IFAS "commander-in-chief" could make a decision on the matter. Does that sound fair and reasonable?

Michael

Isn't that how voting works? If you care you vote one way or another and in a democracy you respect the views of the majority.

Yea, but you can read it as 170 people dont think this has anything to with an astronomy board.

I get the feeling that some noses have been rubbed the wrong way :?

Working for a large corporation I can see the _need_ for patents and we also invests heavily in `open source software`, and I have written software under the GNU license. I can see both sides of this argument. Personally I think some form of patent system is needed in Europe, not a copy of the US one mind you (eg amazons doubleclick is a prime example of something that should never have been granted), it needs to be accessable, thorough, and the officers need to know the subject matter, and lawers need to stopped from over-generalising the patents.

The software we use is US based where its flourished despite crazy software patent laws, so the free software would die argument goes out the window. If people want to protest a better tactic would surely be to pester the people looking for your MEP votes, and they DO need to be pestered to ensure we dont go down the US road with this.

Anyway, pm or email me if you want to discus it further.

astronomy anyone?

Cheers,
~Al

albert,
it is all well and good to have a patent system but this one is clearly an abuse of power. i read somewhere recently microsoft is in the process of filing 13,000 patents. surely that cannot be a good thing. clearly the muppets that are our elected representatives have no idea of the issues involved and this lastest attempt is being brought to you via the irish government and microsoft. if you give them an inch without at least putting up a fight they take a mile. it maybe a bit extreme to take the whole site down but maybe a message saying we support it and a link to a page explaining the issues would be a compromise?.
stephen.

Ok Al, you've lost me now!
in future. In an ideal world such actions could perhaps, in future, be raised at metings of the IFAS committee
Michael

As far as I can make out, they're only held at the starparties.

And, maybe like Michael said, they're should be a hotline to the "commander in chief" of the IFAS for such occasions or other emergencies or disputes,
We could buy him a phone and paint it red :wink: