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Admin message:
Hi,

These posts are the ones that I felt were going off topic and taking away from the original thread about people setting up an Astronomy group in Sligo. So I've created a separate thread to continue this conversation.

Since I can't see how to add a post to the top of the thread I'm sticking this at the top of the first post.

Cheers,
~Al
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@Aubery.
Yea. We were down by the playing field with John O Neill and his partner. In fact we just missed you.
Are you saying that that location is one of the best?
I'm assuming you mean the cosmos talks and dinner etc. (which was brilliant).
But the location?
No offence to anyone but in terms of observing it's not exactly top drawer.

Look, before this turns into a mess of a post I want to be clear again on what I said above.
I'm talking about OBSERVING.
Actual out under the stars. And to that end, finding the best places possible to do that.
For me, I couldn't care less about the talks.
I missed Skelligs but it sounds great.
Ronans event in Sligo sounds cool also.
For me along with obviously next weekend in the Burren. That's my year sorted in terms of getting my dark sky fix along with other like minded folks.

You can have conventions and talks till the cows come home ( we ran WSP for years until - A: the arse fell out of the economy and couldn't get any funding or support from Ross / The Hotel / etc - but that's another days storey.
And B- the light pollution from the town of Birr was atrocious.
Hence the move to the Burren and a few years after the dropping of the talks.
Last year we got a huge crowd - all were there for one thing. Observing. It was awesome.

Don't get me wrong.
I love the talks.
Seanie. Ronan. The Skelligs 5 and all the others that put them on are legends and I'm happy to go (when I can) but again for me it's the being outside is the ticket.
If an event like Skelligs / Ronans Sligo one tick both observing and talks boxes then that's the golden ticket and would be my first choice.
end of the day. Be a Starparty a talks focused one in a mediocre observing area or one with talks in an excellent area or just a plain old Starparty with no talks then the more we have in this country the better!

Its great to see all this new activity but like many things in Ireland, we are so dependant on the weather. After having spent a year now in North Mayo, I can count the number of clear nights I have seen on one hand. Without some talks to make it worthwhile and staying overnight, it would be a bit risky as a purely observing event- like any star party. It is very dark though and I for one would go.
What would be nice to see is an IFAS location that people can go to on any new moon weekend, meet up, have some fun, share knowledge and do some observing if it is clear (and stay overnight if required). Preferably somewhere central (1-2 hours away from major centres) and purely informal.

Frank wrote:

Ronans event in Sligo sounds cool also.
!

Ballycroy is in Mayo Frank as you seem to be unaware of, not Sligo.

I think being reasonable, inviting people from all over Ireland just for an observing event to in an isolated place like Ballyvaughan on a very poor and twisty road, most people dont have to drive that far just to get a dark sky least not on a road like that, and if its cloudy then what, the pub? You can do that in your local too.

Frank wrote:

@Aubery.
Yea. We were down by the playing field with John O Neill and his partner. In fact we just missed you.
Are you saying that that location is one of the best?
I'm assuming you mean the cosmos talks and dinner etc. (which was brilliant).
But the location?
No offence to anyone but in terms of observing it's not exactly top drawer.

Look, before this turns into a mess of a post I want to be clear again on what I said above.
I'm talking about OBSERVING.
Actual out under the stars. And to that end, finding the best places possible to do that.
For me, I couldn't care less about the talks.
I missed Skelligs but it sounds great.
Ronans event in Sligo sounds cool also.
For me along with obviously next weekend in the Burren. That's my year sorted in terms of getting my dark sky fix along with other like minded folks.

You can have conventions and talks till the cows come home ( we ran WSP for years until - A: the arse fell out of the economy and couldn't get any funding or support from Ross / The Hotel / etc - but that's another days storey.
And B- the light pollution from the town of Birr was atrocious.
Hence the move to the Burren and a few years after the dropping of the talks.
Last year we got a huge crowd - all were there for one thing. Observing. It was awesome.

Don't get me wrong.
I love the talks.
Seanie. Ronan. The Skelligs 5 and all the others that put them on are legends and I'm happy to go (when I can) but again for me it's the being outside is the ticket.
If an event like Skelligs / Ronans Sligo one tick both observing and talks boxes then that's the golden ticket and would be my first choice.
end of the day. Be a Starparty a talks focused one in a mediocre observing area or one with talks in an excellent area or just a plain old Starparty with no talks then the more we have in this country the better!

Yes, I agree with everything you are saying, Frank.

Aubrey.

R wrote:

Frank wrote:

Ronans event in Sligo sounds cool also.
!

Ballycroy is in Mayo Frank as you seem to be unaware of, not Sligo.

I think being reasonable, inviting people from all over Ireland just for an observing event to in an isolated place like Ballyvaughan on a very poor and twisty road, most people dont have to drive that far just to get a dark sky least not on a road like that, and if its cloudy then what, the pub? You can do that in your local too.

Ronan is right, you cant bank on observing in this country, but it needs to be the centre of a star party. You need a dark sky reserve to do it justice. I hope more of them become a reality in Ireland.

Going to Johns point about an IFAS location. SSP was set up out of pure frustration with the way IFAS is run. All talk no agreement and zero action. To anyone running an event I know how hard it is to do it. But its very rewarding. I would and have suggested changes at club and federation level, but that falls on deaf ears. There is too much agenda and not enough astronomy.

I welcome more star party events, Derek, Steve and Ronan will get some work done. Of that I have zero doubt. And ill be there when they do get it off the ground.

But what I wont get involved in, (again to be fair) is the pitting of Clubs against each other that seems to be the legacy of IFAS. As PR for SSP I wont allow that kind of BS to scupper ours or any other event. As a group the SSP 5 are happy to help out anyone who wants to do something for the benefit of Irish Astronomy. The future of Irish Astronomy is with the people actually doing something, not sitting in closed door meetings, making motions for grand titles.

Seriously Ronan?
Are you going this route with me?
What are you on about?

'Seem to be unaware of'?
Are you joking.
I hope you are.
It was a mistake.
I get that sometimes intent gets misread in text but lol.
The rest?
Are you actually taking the piss?
"Inviting people from all over Ireland"
"Twisty road"
"The pub"
Most people can drive a few hours to get to a dark site


Ronan. Seriously.
Please. Please. Please. Tell me you trying to rise me.

Did I hit a nerve with you or something?
I don't get it.
I mean what's your point?
Are you trying to say a "Starparty" HAS to have talks?
Well dude. THEY DONT.
the people who will go are people that want to.
There's nobody FORCING anyone to go. Lol
There's people on these forums who go to starparties and NRVER go to the observing AND THATS TOTALLY FINE!
each to their own!
This post was started by someone that wanted to get a few people together to go observing and make it a regular event. If your post above is in jest then let's talk. If not and your for real then you can sod off and I'm not even going to reply to any more crap like it. The reason why I left these forums for years was because of posts like that. We're supposed to be a bunch of hobbyists enjoying a shared interest. If you can't get that then good luck to you.
I have Zero interest in clubs positioning each other in some kind of "we have the best event" bull or ego massaging.
All I care about is people helping each other and supporting each other.

Frank I have zero interest in pitting clubs againnst each other either, I think we are well beyond that and was glad to see ye in Galway this year. I just stated an opinion and as Dave agreed in this climate it can be good to have talks,my opinion not yours. Im sure if the skies are clear they will come in their droves to the BSP and we will advertise it, at least its very dark up there. I have been to Ballyvaughan and thought it was a twisty road from the west. There is only one person who boasts of the best event in Ireland and we know who it is.lol

Wow , I haven't seen a thread like this in years.

I've yet to see a motorway to a decent dark sky site, you can bet that the last tens of miles are going to be on B roads, by definition they're remote
Guys, I figure the vast majority are in this for the hobby, I really didn't realise there was any vitriol towards ifas, I always operated under the assumption that ifas helped the clubs help each other, and I always felt it worked out ok, what individual clubs do or don't do is their business.

Here in Limerick, we're all about observing, it's our priority, so,if the guys up in Sligo run an observing event, then super, if the weather isn't looking good then it's up to yourself to decide whether to go or not, talks are a bonus, and there is absolutely no point talking up an awefull site or talking down a superb site, a useless site won't get repeat visitors.

R wrote:

There is only one person who boasts of the best event in Ireland and we know who it is.lol

Who is that ?

Ah now, this is nuts lol
You're telling me / implying no one should travel on a C road to an observing site. Lol
Many people here have driven up mountains, driven on roads with grass in the middle, gravel tracks, even through fields to get to an observing site, lol

When you guys in Sligo run an observing night/weekend, I won't be put off by C roads lol

I'm agreeing with you Dave that the" last tens of miles are going to be on B roads, by definition they're remote" or a C road

lol, ok, for me B was slang for a back road, see the link for the real story en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_Ireland#Local_Roads , no mention of definition of B or C, doesn't matter ,
Eitherway, best of luck to the guys in Sligo, I look forward to it,
if the mods want to delete all the crud in this thread, fine by me, don't mean to be hogging the thread.

I don't read the forum for a few days and people start throwing hand grenades around. Can someone at least tell me next time there's an argument going on!

I've been to star parties that were 10 minutes from a motorway, I've been to starparties where my not very high off the ground car nearly got stuck in the grass growing in the middle of the lane, I've driven _into_ light pollution to sidewalk observing sessions, and I've driven hours to dark sites just to meet up with a few friends for observing. The infrastructure and plan depends on what your goals are.

Criticism of IFAS I always find amusing. It's a federation of astronomical societies - there to share information between clubs, offer advice, get insurance, sometimes liaise with professional and national bodies, sometimes coordinate national events, provide a communication forum, that kind of thing. And it operates by consensus of the clubs. Don't get frustrated with IFAS if it's not organising something you think it should be - the committee is comprised of people who are busy running their own groups.

On the occasions where IFAS has ran events they are generally driven by a couple of individuals who will run it under the IFAS umbrella, though they don't always come to fruition. IFAS was the initial starting point for setting up a light pollution sub committee - that's morphed into Dark Skies Ireland today and thanks to work through IFAS we now have scientific measurement and modelling of light pollution though TCD, held a major European conference on light pollution in 2009, etc. One that didn't happen was funnily enough a starparty, some of us were at the announcement of the Dark Sky park early in 2014 the idea of a starparty there was suggested. Over the coming months accommodation and observing locations were checked out (including a public lecture venue and venues that would be able to house talks in the case of bad weather!). A few months later we found out that others were working on what would become the Skelligs Star Party so we didn't proceed any further with our plans, and I've been happy to see that IFAS has actively promoted the SSP here and with clubs.

Now whether you are off to a field down roads that not even a GPS recognises or visiting a well connected town with hotels etc. please take note of the sky quality and register it at globeatnight.org

Ireland's West is well known for its dark skies, and it would be the best place or any real star party to be hosted. However, as already mentioned, observing always comes secondary due to Ireland's weather. Sometimes, us amateur astronomers get lucky, sometimes not. Some of us here have been to actual star parties where there wasn't even a lecture calendar: Athens, Teneriffe, Australia, Canada, Colorado. That is where the magic really happens, and luck had nothing to do with it! It's just a product of the Irishness of our hobby: Have a lecture night, and if it's not cloudy, scrap it for outdoor astronomy.

If Ronan Newman and his contacts (Mayo), Derek Davey and his contacts (Sligo), Eamonn Ansbro and his contacts (Roscommon), and the SAC gang and their contacts (Clare) are as successful as Julie Ormonde and her contacts (Kerry), then Ireland is in for a TREAT on the world's dark skies map!

(Now the digressing bit)
All the annual star party events claim their right as the 'best', 'biggest', 'most awesome' event in Ireland. Each is unique yet draws on consistency of a programme that has always worked in the past. Anyone who wants to pick on any one star party should look at the wording of the other events before it for the same wording. It's called Pee-Are (PR)

I really adore the fact that there is such competition on individual and club levels to strive to be the best and work towards outdoing each other. I think that it is a testament to the amount of work that is needed - and those willing to take it on - to make a lecture night/observing session/star party happen, and reap the fruits of their labors during the event. The past couple of years have seen more diversity of what's on offer around Ireland. Our little island must have something like the highest number of star parties per capita!

Going to Johns point about an IFAS location. SSP was set up out of pure frustration with the way IFAS is run. All talk no agreement and zero action. To anyone running an event I know how hard it is to do it.

All previous IFAS Chairpersons know the answer to this (and Albert already spoke of it above). IFAS is an OUTLET. It is not a 'club' that has a core committee that can allocate resources and time more easily then if it was an actual 'club' with more local members: members on a committee that sometimes meet face to face, members that have consistent and targeted goals because they are not spread thinly with other work and life duties or other club memberships. To be frustrated at IFAS not taking on a central role is, to me as the current Chairperson, not appreciating the efforts that IFAS does. The IFAS committee is at the mercy of its member club Reps, and if some don't or can't take as active a part that would be better suited to the majority, then that is just the way it goes. The interests of all member club must be taken into consideration.

And as current Chairperson, I am sorry if the efforts of my committee are not good enough to have a nationwide star party to compete against the individual club's efforts. We believe the promotion of astronomy by filling in holes where there are holes is ALSO a good course of action: nationwide press releases, annual calendars, photography competitions (albeit on a hiatus at present), observing aides (in the form of the timeless Observing Challenges), national public awareness of solar eclipse safety WITH 1,500 solar viewers distributed free: Just a few items worth commending.

I applaud the efforts of those of you wanting to take on the challenge of organising a new observing or star party event. And event more so for attempting a new dark sky reserve. Those efforts present big challenges. Challenges that all observers (not astronomical observers, but those on the outside) must appreciate, and that we all should humbly acknowledge - because it is going to make your hobby even better.

Seanie.

Im sorry Seanie but what you just said is the problem with IFAS.

This whole club outlet thing is finished, old news and does not represent what's going on in Irish Astronomy. New clubs and parties are coming along and IFAS does not fit them. What's needed is a national body to represent Irish Astronomy, that's not David Moore.

Pee- Are, again no idea what your talking about.

If IFAS wants to survive then it needs reform. If nothing else a debate that not held behind closed doors. Otherwise you start to sound like the most popular astronomy club in the world.

to the mods, can this ifas stuff be moved over to a thread for it,
its a debate worth having but not right here.
poor Derek Davey 's head must be spinning lol

Dave_Lillis wrote:

to the mods, can this ifas stuff be moved over to a thread for it,
its a debate worth having but not right here.
poor Derek Davey 's head must be spinning lol

I'm trying to figure out how to do it without accidentally deleting half the posts and then getting accused of censorship

Wow. I go away for 5 years and come back to this
Seanie makes a good comment about having the highest star party ratio per capita in the world - I believe this is very true.
Having been in the Australian club scene for a few years I could share a few thoughts of comparison (except for the weather .Firstly, it works extremely well.
There is no blanket organisation for the regional clubs although they all work together and share observing sites and events. New South Wales has only two major star parties a year, one organised by the state society and the other is run by forum members for forum members on boards like this one. It typically attracts around 200 people in a scout camp with basic kitchen and toilet facilities to interact with each other, enjoy the company and do some observing.
Most observing is done informally on new moon weekends on three or four sites which are not club sites (not dark sky sites but not bad and near town, - an equestrian centre-basically a field, an airfield, a golf club...). A post goes out asking anyone who wants to attend to show up (weather permitting). Public outreach was also mainly informal-asking if people could attend say, a local school event in their kids school etc...great fun. I did loads of this stuff and have quite a collection of outreach teeshirts.
I would be happy to share my experiences with anyone who is interested.

John, sounds like the ideal way to run such events, its similar to whats done here.
All the astro events promoted here (be they club events or otherwise) should not be seen as been in competition with each other, its not about anyone getting one up on anyone else,
For instance, if we in SAC decide to run other events, we will absolutely not clash with anyone else's event, we're not out to scuttle anyone, at the very basic level its bad manners to do so.

John, are you involved in the Sligo group ?

@manic-dave, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how you think things should be differently structured.

Dave_Lillis wrote:

John, sounds like the ideal way to run such events, its similar to whats done here.

John, are you involved in the Sligo group ?

@manic-dave, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how you think things should be differently structured.

I haven't met the Sligo lads yet. I'm not here at the weekends so it is a bit difficult. Hopefully soon.

One thing that we don't seem to do much of is combining club resources in organising events. For example in Aussie, if a major event was being organised on an annual basis, the clubs would rotate around each year as to who hosts it but help each other out. For example, a hypothetical "Munster Star Party" would be organised by SAC one year, Kerry the next and Cork the following year. That way the club only has to host every three years-less work, more fun, less financial burden, bigger critical mass of people to attend and the clubs get to collaborate more.

I think the Skellig event is a great idea and sets a benchmark.( Very similar to the Ice in Space astro camp event). I hope to attend next year. It didn't need a club to organise it, just a few individuals with the will to do it and a bit of leadership. It just shows what the potential is.

Dave_Lillis wrote:

@manic-dave, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how you think things should be differently structured.

I believe that astronomy needs a strong voice in Ireland at the armature level otherwise its left to David Moore. And all he is interested in is making money IMHO. I have told him this to his face several times. There is little joined up thinking on national subjects. I don't agree that IFAS did a great job for the solar eclipse. In fact it could have gone very wrong. The excuse of leaving it up to the clubs just does not cut it, IFAS should be steering the events. we have one of the best Lunar eclipses in years this month. A national set of advertised and organised events needs to be set up. Republic of Astronomy have the audience, we have the experience, why are we not working with Anthony? This is my point about IFAS not fitting everyone. There is a very obvious link up here, but nobody has taken this on.

IFAS is afraid of its history, and this position of not welcoming help from the corporate side of Astronomy due to the legacy of not wanting to deal with Moore is holding it back. I am very aware that a significant offer was made to fun this website a few years ago. What happened, nothing. Plenty of talking no decision and ultimately the offer rejected. All behind closed doors.

I know within my old club a decision was taken so that the chair and the club sec would always be the IFAS reps. This is excluding the view of club members. I don't agree with IFAS reps electing a chairperson or a president for that matter. This should be an open vote between all members of all cubs or groups that wish to be part of the IFAS structure.

IFAS should lead the way with this website as a forum for exchange of information and help for its members and the general public. But it must have a strong social media presence, again I point to what Republic of Astronomy are doing with zero funding. This forum needs to be refreshed and updated. Astronomy Shed in the UK is a good example of a well run website.

Star parties are the life blood of our hobby, and we have some cracking events. But there is friction and it should not be ignored. IFAS should be the head of this and help allocate out slots so events don't pile up on each other. It should also fund raise to provide help in brining these events into the public sphere.

The astrophoto competition was handled very badly, and this was long before the issues with scopes and space. Taking weeks to return results and voting going on weeks longer than it should. I don't believe that one person should have been responsible to do all the work, as it seemed. But again all the discussion for this in a private forum for a few.

We have the talent in this country, Dee, Michael O Connell, Dave G, Brian Mc Gabhann is an amazing speaker. John Flannary, Kevin in Meath Astronomy. Look at what a few of us did in SSP and what the lads out the west are going to do. The work Anthony does is just brilliant on zero funding.

I propose that IFAS as it is, is no longer relevant. It should appoint someone with vision to bring the organisation along and be a focal point for all that's good about Irish Astronomy. Someone who we can put forward as an alternative to Moore in the media and strengthen the name of Irish astronomy. There are a few people very capable of doing this and I have mentioned them. But with an exclusive behind closed doors policy that will not happen.

The structure should be of a national organisation with the support of groups and clubs. Voted for by the members, with a mandate and a constitution. It should be the focal point of the hobby and be very visible in the public eye. I think a good debate is needed to look at this kind of idea in detail.

Hi Dave,

Many thanks for that mention of my name along with the illustrious company. I'll probably not actually join the discussion but just add a few items.

My battle with some health issues is probably what has stymied me somewhat for many years and meant not completing some astronomy goals or stopping involvement with certain projects such as the Arcturus magazine. That said, I've a few niche projects now such as the IFAS calendar, doing the odd talk, and helping at Dunsink Observatory. I probably couldn't take on anything additional to be honest.

I was asked to give a talk in late-July at an event organised by a venture called Seasonal Beast to tie in with that night's Blue Moon. Another speaker who we all know but will not be named used their talk to mostly promote and highlight their own upcoming events. I actually said to the organisers afterwards that the talk was an utter disgrace and that person essentially hijacked what should have been a neutral event celebrating the Moon in music and word.

So true then Dave that it would be nice for a higher profile for IFAS or similar to be the go-to group, etc for genuine and unbiased information on astronomy. There are many people sending out such details already but maybe if we looked at the upcoming calendar and decide what is worth promoting and doing so well.

Also, re: Anthony's FB site and also the SSP's one, there is such a bewildering array of social media tools now that it is hard to coordinate it all or even push info out to them. Like you, it's possible we are both thinking there are many members of the IFAS boards but only a handful on the site regularly. That's where FB, Twitter, etc. is better. I set up a Twitter account last year but it's another project currently simmering slowly on the fire.

Chat soon,

John

Alot of points there Dave, what I say below are my own thoughts, not the thoughts of the anyone else,

At the end the day, IFAS can only do what the clubs are willing to do, is there no point in IFAS promoting events if the clubs/goups aren't behind it, some club are very active, others aren't. Some are astrophysics/theory orientated, others are more observing orientated, it's just the way it is, each club suits its own audience.

From what I can see, IFAS promotes events that individual clubs come up with through this site, its up to people to get off their backsides and go to them. The clubs run IFAS, IFAS serves as a conduit for the clubs. Another model (which I think you might be suggesting) would be where IFAS is a national club/society and the "clubs" are effectively branches, maybe that would be a better model, I don't know, .. would it make IFAS more effective or just bog it down in bureaucracy, egos and politics ??

I don't think the clubs in Cork, Limerick, Belfast or where ever need IFAS telling them to promote the upcoming lunar eclipse for example, if that club is going to hold an event, then they're going to promote it.
If you mean IFAS needs a good speaker to push events on the radio and even go on TV and other media, then yes, that would be a good idea.

As for "that" guy in the other so called astro "club", who cares, he does his thing, everyone knows what he's about, the internet has seen to that, he is always going to be there no matter what we do. Sure we can be competition for him, but at the end of the day, not matter what we do, he isn't going to go away...
As far as I know, and I could be wrong here, the body is an actual company he owns, this is how he can devote so much time to it cos its his actual job. We're all working, no one working can operate on that level..

Regarding corporate sponsorship, here in SAC back in the days of the WSP, we very happily took in corporate sponsorship and promoted the sponsors, I didn't think anyone here was afraid of it. Also, I didn't think this website was in need of sponsorship to keep it going ? As the IFAS committee meet so infrequently, I guess it can take alot of time to get to a decision I guess..

As for IFAS reps, I wasn't aware of the situation you describe. For ourselves in SAC, anyone on our committee who wants the IFAS reps position can have it, that goes for nearly almost any position (there are time as a member rules for the top senior posts). We deliberately avoid and prevent anyone having too much control or getting into a rut, we actively seek club enthusiastic "ordinary" club members to join out committee. If a club turns into a one man band, disaster is inevitable as they will eventually burn out. I had hoped the committee in IFAS was organized the same way.

Regarding this site, the likes of facebook and others have put bulletin boards everywhere into a very third place. Our own facebook page in SAC has killed off the public side of our own bulletin boards, its still up but is more of an archive. Facebook is our primary promotion tool. Having said that there is no real censorship here, you guys organized the SSP on these boards to a certain extent, it wasn't an ifas club event, the ifas clubs pay for this site, but in the spirit of promoting astronomy nothing was done to stifle it, it would have been mean spirited and that's not these boards are about. People make these boards what they are.

Maybe I'm wrong here, its not IFAS itself you don't agree with, but how you think its run...

johnomahony wrote:

with basic kitchen and toilet facilities to interact with each other

I would be happy to share my experiences with anyone who is interested.

John - please *do* share...

dmcdona wrote:

johnomahony wrote:

with basic kitchen and toilet facilities to interact with each other

I would be happy to share my experiences with anyone who is interested.

John - please *do* share...

I think I have a few photos....

I did mention it was a scout camp