Telescopes (Meade ETX 70 & Skylux) in Lidl Monday 22nd N

15 years 6 months ago #5883 by orions neb
Hi Stephen

As you said the uk is selling them for 300 but if lidl did manage to buy a good quantity of these telescopes? How on earth then can a supermarket get at a small price for them?

If this is the case? Why cant the main telescope shops do the same….what’s so special about lidls that can manage this? Personally I wouldn’t buy it because to me it’s a junk scope whatever make it is. I know im negative about this because I have my suspicions to be. If they were selling them telescopes in your local sweetshop would you still buy it?

Im not asking people not to buy it….its there choice!! What I am saying all these years ive been interested in astronomy we have been advised to stay away from junk scopes in chemists/supermarkets. All of a sudden this lidls is selling this telescope and now its ok to buy from a supermarket. Its giving the wrong impression to the beginner. Is there one man here that can tell me im wrong in what im saying? Im sure someone will twist my words but at least im sticking to my beliefs.

169 for the scope……sorry I just cant see the rewards in getting it.

Orion.

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15 years 6 months ago #5885 by Cathy
There are loads and loads of Lidls, all over the place, not just in Ireland - usually telescope shops would only have one or two branches at the most. Lidl can afford to buy them in bulk because of this.

And Meade isn't a 'junk scope' brand. If this was a Tasco telescope you can be sure that people here wouldn't be as ready to buy it as they are now, but Meade are quite reputable, from what I've seen.

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15 years 6 months ago #5887 by albertw
Hi,

maybe the scope might be good? maybe not.......if the beginners out there buy this scope and there happy with it..all is well and i will eat my words...if its not good......well it wasnt me that recommened it.

my main concern is how can a supermarket sell such a scope if its the genuine item and not a immitation? dont forget xmas is comming up soon isnt this the time to avoid junk scopes for your children and yourself? maybe ive lost the plot....and you all can slag me off for being honest but im the one keeping away from junk scopes and some of you are buying them.....why? so all the advice astronomy forums/magazines and so on give about not to buy junk scopes is all false? lidl is some kind of supermarket isnt it? my wife goes there shopping sometimes for household items.....would you normally buy a scope from a shop that sells food/other things? dont think so somehow.


I bought the skylux (cheaper scope) last time from lidl and have been happy with it. I do actually use it quite a bit for planetary/lunar when I cant be bothered taking out the 10". With decent eyepeices I think its a good scope. The more expensive one is a meade ETX-70, it ifs not then lidl will be getting sued from meade over trademarks! I dont own one of these but have used other peoples ones and its great for what it is, a small goto, with exactly the magnification and performance that you would expect from a short tube refractor.

The thing is that lidl have actually established themselves with a reputation for the optics in some of their specials. I own a pair of binoculars and a telescope from them and they have both performed as well as much more expensive equipment. Thats not to say that they wont turn around next week and sell a plastic tasco, in which case this board will be full of people advising not to buy it. The products they are selling on monday have an good track record for what they are, 70mm refractors, and imo are not junkscopes.

If there is a perception that this thread is advocating going and buying cheap scopes from a supermarket in general, then that is wrong. Its just these particular scopes that are a good deal. A Tasco at Tesco would not be!

As for the price, Meade is phasing out the ETX line and upgrading it, therefore I would suspect that lidl managed to buy a large chunk of existing stock at a discount directly from the factory in China. The Skylux comes with a Meade CD also so perhaps there is actually some agreement between lidl and meade to shift old kit that otherwise would become a liability on the books sitting in warehouses.

Cheers,
~Al

Albert White MSc FRAS
Chairperson, International Dark Sky Association - Irish Section
www.darksky.ie/

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15 years 6 months ago #5889 by dmcdona
Al - is the current scope on offer for €60 a Skylux? There's no description of brand.

Also, would either (or both) of these serve any useful purpose as a finder, in you opinion?

And finally, do you know if *all* the Lidl stores will be carrying both of these products from Monday?

Cheers

Dave

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15 years 6 months ago #5890 by orions neb
Hi Cathy


Ok fair enough you don’t agree with me.

I’m only saying what I feel no one can argue about that. As for that scope again I see nothing mentioned about it being a Meade..all it says is…….computer telescope!!

Now….if it is a Meade why not have the name there? But if it turns out to be a Meade in disguise please except my apologies. But as I see it to my eyes it’s a junk scope. I cant say no more than that its just my opinion that’s all. If im wrong about this……again except my apologies.

Has anybody seen it yet? Is it a Meade or something else?

Orion

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15 years 6 months ago #5891 by dmcdona
Orion - yes, it *is* a Meade - you can see the Meade badge (on the scope)in the photo and as far as I know, no-one else other than Meade sells a scope with a model number 'ETX-70'.

This is not a 'junk scope' but neither is it a top end fluorite apo. Most certainly what it is, is cheap and value for money. Seems there are real bargains to be had these days! Fair play to Lidl.

Al - Takahashi at Tesco? Who knows... :shock:

Cheers

Dave

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15 years 6 months ago #5893 by michaeloconnell
Orion,
Just to confirm, it is definetly a Meade telescope. It shows that on the pic of the hand controller which is linked on Page 1 of this message. I admit, the picture could be clearer but been the owner of a Meade telescope myself, I can confirm that the writing does say "Meade" and the title "ETX-70" would be legally protected by Meade anyway, as Dave said.
I can understand where you're coming from with regard to the optical quality of the whole thing and whether to recommend it or not. I think most of us here know that this little telescope is not very big nor does it have the most amazing quality optics. Rather, it's quite a good deal for a small telescope with reasonable (not brilliant nor rubbish) optics and goto capability.
Like any telescope, it's always a compromise. You've probably noticed another thread where Dave is considering the purchase of an Astrophysics telescope. In terms of optical quality, they have a reputation for producing the best quality telescopes. However, they ain't cheap.
On the other side there's Tasco. Most of us know that the quality of Tasco products would be, well, how will I say this politely...not very good! However, they cost very little. Very often it's these scopes that are featured in department store and chemists' shop windows and often find their way into Santa's sleigh at Christmas. As you correctly pointed out, they are not very good and should not be recommended.
Ultimately, it's always a case of each person trying to get the best value scope for their budget but without buying complete rubbish either. Either of the two telescope featured in Lidl would make a fine gift for a child (or adult) this Christmas.

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15 years 6 months ago #5894 by orions neb
Ok all.

You’ve decided that im the black sheep of the family so to speak!!

So it’s a Meade then…I didn’t say it was or it wasn’t all it said was computer telescope. Now as it was said that it’s a Meade why not mention it on the website? wouldn’t lidl be proud to be selling something from Meade!!

Look………im just a bit suspicious of it all. Its Ireland only(republic) why is this how come the telescope shops that sell this model aren’t selling it at that price? Surley Meade would give priority to them over lidls it doesn’t make sense. Unless there so called factory rejects? As Cathy said Meade is not a junk scope, I never said it was, what I did say was the scope in general was junk. I didn’t see any Meade logo or name all I saw was an imitation of a Meade. Am I so wrong to call it a junk scope……I think not.

Im just stating a fact from 25 years of knowledge in astronomy and reading articles about telescopes and where not to buy them on advice from the pros. I might not own a good telescope yet but that doesn’t mean to say im talking out of my backside. They all advise to keep away from such places, now lidls is selling this scope everyone is rushing to buy it from a supermarket….are you getting my drift yet? Sorry to be blunt but it’s the truth. Look at any astronomy website they say the same thing. Well all I can say is I hope it’s a good scope for the beginner and they wont be disappointed in it…….I really do. Its ok for you with experience you will find use for it but for the beginner I think it wouldn’t be suitable.

Orion.

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15 years 6 months ago #5895 by dmcdona
Orion - I'm sure no-one here would vilify you for expressing your opinion. And in no way would anyone think of you as a black sheep!

Expressing opinions and requesting the opinions of others is the reason that this is such a great forum.

I can see exactly where you are coming from - all the mags and most astronomers tell you to run a mile from any high-street stores flogging any kind of optical instrument. And quite rightly so. If you are going to buy specialist equipment, then you go to the specialist equipment shop - right? There you can get advice on choices and after-sales support. You also get a route to take if things go wrong. And you get access to accesories.

Of course, even within the specialist shops, there are some that some some kinds of equipment, and others that sell other kinds of equipment. There would also be a range of quality in terms of advice and after-sales service.

All in all - if you are going to invest a substantial part of your budget on specialist equipment then you need to do the research and invest it through a reputable dealer.

Here's the crunch though - it just so happens that, on the face of it, Lidl are offering a scope of known pedigree at a very competitive price. Lidl are not a specialist astonomy shop. I'm sure that you will get no advice from the sales assistant at the store and I'm sure the after sales service will be limited to their refund policy/procedure - you won't be buying a Televue Nagler from them for sure or asking them if they can help you upgrade the software...

On the face of it, you can go into Lidl on Monday and get an ETX-70 at a great price and use it for whatever purpose you want. But, buyer beware. And by the way, that goes for specialist dealers in astronomy equipment too! We could all think of a dealer or supplier where we've gotten a bum deal in the past or perhaps paid way over the odds.

But as I said before, you do the research and make your choice.

Luckily, the posters on this board have done most of the research for us all. So now its a case of deciding to nip over to the cash machine and head for Lidl, or not.

You make some very good points and your opinion really does matter. You will not be considered a 'black sheep', at least not by me. And I may not always agree with your opinion or the opinion of others. But I would absolutely defend your right to always express it at all times!

So - keep 'em coming!

Cheers

Dave

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15 years 6 months ago #5896 by orions neb
Hi its me again!!

I just want to post this for people that cant understand what im saying. This is my argument about junk telescopes in unqualified shops whatever make it is. Have a look at this site and come back and tell me that im still wrong about what ive been saying. Im only talking for the beginners here like myself who’s looking for there first telescope.

I will let you judge for yourselves. All this is aimed at the beginner….if it was me I would save the money for something better after all if your not happy with it? that’s your money gone and your left with a scope that you wont like anymore. Its your choice im only offering a bit of advise. If you got your heart set on buying it then go ahead it could turn out to be a first class scope? www.backyardastronomer.com/pages/scopes.html

This is one of many sites that advise beginners what not to do. that’s all ive been saying in my posts. But it seems like ive upset people in the way ive mentioned this scope.

Ps……to me this is still a supermarket selling telescopes that’s why im still calling it a junk scope. Whatever brand is stamped on it.

Thanks for putting up with me

Orion.

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15 years 6 months ago #5898 by jhonan

Ps……to me this is still a supermarket selling telescopes that’s why im still calling it a junk scope. Whatever brand is stamped on it.


A 'junk scope' is not defined by the outlet it's sold through. If Lidl started selling Televue or Tak scopes, we couldn't start calling them 'junk' just because Lidl are selling them!

The classification 'junk scope' came about because historically outlets like chemists, department stores, and places like Argos sold scopes which were guaranteed to disappoint a beginner to the hobby. And they also tended to hype up the abilities of the scope. So, you'd often see things like "400x magnification! See Saturn's rings!" on a 60mm refractor with a plastic lens and crappy tripod.

I suspect people here are recommending the ETX not because of its suitability for beginners, but because of its price. Can't go far wrong for €169, and Meade is a respectable brand. Once you start spending real money on the hobby, €169 would just about get you a couple of good eyepieces... :?

In honesty, most beginners who haven't learned to observe properly will probably end up disappointed with the ETX70. But that is because their initial expectations are so high. Remember the first time you pointed a scope at andromeda and all you saw was a grey smudge? - Or that blurry red dot that was supposed to be Mars? They're going to be expecting Hubble images from a 70mm scope.

That's why an 8" dob is the typical recommendation for a beginner. It's the scope they will learn the most from, and gives reasonable views of nebula and galaxies. And it's not too expensive (but still a lot more expensive than the Lidl ETX)

So, the decision for the beginner is, do you want to spend €169 now, just to get your hands on a scope, and don't expect *too* much from it (but hey, impress your friends with the GOTO functionality) - Or, do you want to save your money and buy an 8" dob or something with decent aperture further down the line?

John.

Everyone in Ireland buys Meade, and they all buy them from Lidl.

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15 years 6 months ago #5900 by dmcdona
John, once you really REALLY start spending money in this hobby, €169 would get you half a decent eyepiece, a threaded adapter, a counterweight or a year's supply of tablets to make that headache go away!

Personally I started with an 8" Newtonian/GE (non-Goto) with few problems - other than its fast and needs careful collimation.

Orion - I think that the advice of not buying from a non-astronomy shop is good advice. However, in this day and age there is always the possibility that non-astronomical shops will stock items of value and quality. If I ever came across such an offer, I would do the research and then decide. I wouldn't knock it just because Trotter's Independent Trading Company is selling it. But I would pay particular care about making the decision.

You are of course entitled to your opinion of *never* buying from the likes of Lidl, Aldi etc on principle. And I applaud you for taking this position. Others however are prepared to take an educated risk and part with their hard earned dosh. And it seems to me rom these posts, that most prospective purchasers from IFAS are experienced observers and see the ETX as a nice addition to their arsenal of kit - portable and cheap.

It will certainly be interesting to see what kind of posts come out from Monday onwards regarding the Lidl-purchased ETX's and Skylux's.

Cheers

Dave

Lidl doing Tak? :shock: Can't wait! :D

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15 years 6 months ago #5903 by orions neb
Hi all.

Ok all I give in……Its obvious I seem to be the only one here that has negative views about the reason behind selling this particular scope cheap. And why we are the only ones in the world has this offer as far as I know. Ive nothing against lidls…..I just want to know how it managed to get there and why?

It also seems the name meade as won you all over…..haven’t any of you wondered why its so cheap if it is the real McCoy then fair enough its my loss. No doubt it will be found out Monday what the scope will be like. But no one has really answered my question….how did lidls manage to get stock of these scopes and sell them cheap? Surely to god astronomy shops would have got priority first to sell them.

If you had a stock of meade telescopes who would you give them to……..I don’t think it would be a supermarket now would it. I know its cheap that’s not the problem, the fact that its sold in a supermarket is a problem to me. Most of you will buy it Monday against advice from the pros, about not buying from department stores and so on…….now where is the logic in that?

I wouldn’t care if they sold LX90s…….if a proper telescope shop cant sell them at a knockdown price then in my view there is something suspicious of the items. Ive heard people saying don’t buy a scope from ebay they cannot be trusted, they sell hundreds of brand name scopes cheap……but here you are all going to a supermarket for one……it doesn’t make sense dose it.

Look…….im not trying to stop people from buying this scope im merely saying what the so called pros have been saying for years……don’t buy from department stores. This is what I meant earlier in one of my posts say one thing and do another. that’s why I think its giving the wrong impression to the beginners were told not to buy from so called stores but there you are doing it yourselves. Who are they gonna listen to now. If anything it will be more confusing for them…first sign of a scope in any store they will most likely buy it because supermarkets sell them now.

I will go now ive bored you all enough.


Orion

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15 years 6 months ago #5906 by michaeloconnell
Orion,
I can perfectly understand your logic. This is rip-off ireland after all. Nobody goes out of their way to provide a good deal for the customer. Mabey you will be proven right by Monday evening. Personally, I hope not as I plan on getting one as a travel scope, however you may well be right. We genuinely do understand where you're coming from on all this. However, to date, both Aldi and Lidl have sold lots of products in their sales at very reasonable prices and the quality seeems fine. Hopefully they'll be the exception to the rule and the same level of quality will continue. Besides, if they are bad, we'll only have ourselves to blame cause we should have known better.
*Crossing my fingers and toes*

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15 years 6 months ago #5908 by ctr

And why we are the only ones in the world has this offer as far as I know.


Is it because we don't have a Meade supplier?

Or do we?

I wonder :?

Conor

Each of us is here on earth for a reason, and each of us has a special mission to carry out - Maria Shriver

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15 years 6 months ago #5910 by ayiomamitis
Three quick points in a thread which has become much longer than I expected and for the wrong reasons (no offence to anyone) ...

(1) since some/most of us are experienced amateur astronomers, we can always open the package at the LIDL outlet and take a closer look. For the gentleman who doubts these are Meade's, what better way than to inspect the box on Monday and go as far as looking at the scope with the Meade label?

(2) if for any reason either scope proves to be a lemon or "junk", why not just return it? I know that LIDL (at least in Greece) are very accomodating when it comes to returns!

(3) I am almost certain Meade is DUMPING stock dirt cheap because they have modified their ETX line. For starters, each of the "new" ETX scopes has the OTA covered with a photo. For example, I think M42 is "wrapped" around one of the ETX products etc.

Anthony.

Anthony Ayiomamitis
Athens, Greece
www.perseus.gr

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15 years 6 months ago #5912 by Liam
Replied by Liam on topic Lidl Astronomy Shop
I have bought some products from Lidl and have not had a problem. One is a Tronic power supply which I use with my scopes. Its great!!! and a third of the price of the ones on sale in Astronomy shops.

Most of us here have some experience of telescopes and, buying from Lidi ,we can open the box to vet exactly what it is we are going to buy. You cant do that on e-bay.

I dont for one minute suspect that these scopes are not genuine or are "under the counter". Meade are probably off loading stock as revised models come in. The ETX70 has been around since the mid/late 90's?

Most of us considering buying from Lidl already have larger scopes and see this one as a handy "throw in the boot of the car just to be ready" sort of scope. There is also the "Now that I know my way around the night sky , I wonder how far I could push the seeing with this little scope" sort of challange.

I am sure a young astronomer would enjoy the views of the moon through this scope. Its an ideal inexpensive starter scope which a young person would hopefull graduate from to a larger scope in a number of years.


I suggest going to Lidl and opening the box. In fact you will probably meet a few IFAS members there who will check the scope for you!

Just dont fight over the last one!!!!!!!


Liam

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15 years 6 months ago #5917 by spudnik
dont know if this link was already posted or not but theres a review of this scope on cloudy nights ->

www.cloudynights.com/reviews4/ETX70.htm

A very positive review at that.


Me, im getting one. I think itll balance the 10" dob nicely ;)

"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine" Sir Arthur Eddington

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15 years 6 months ago #5920 by Bren
Hey all.
New to the forum. Looks like a great resource.
New to astronomy myself but I've always had an interest. About time I got myself a telescope!

Anyway, i think I'll go and get the ETX70 come Monday.
I was going to get the Skylux but spudnik's previous post has sealed it for the ETX70.

Conclusions

Pros: Very nice handy (holiday) scope which is fully computerised and can show you in a very short time many of the brighter deep sky objects and gives reasonable views of the planets and moon. It is a pure fun scope

Cons: Well honestly, considering the price actually there are none. It does everything you can expect from a 70mm F5 achromat.
I obtained my ETX via the standard commercial way and have no special commercial interests nor in the ETX nor in Meade.


That and the comments in the previous pages helped me decide.
I can deffo see where Orion is comming from. I bought a laptop from Aldi a while back (yes, Aldi) and was very pleased with it. Lidl, being similar, just might have the same quality hardware this time too and make me happy once again. We'll find out on Monday. :)

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15 years 6 months ago #5921 by Liam
Replied by Liam on topic Welcome
Welcome Bren.

You dont have to be mad here but it helps!!!

We are all a bit wired to the moon... or Jupiter .. or M33 ....


Seriously though, if you have any questions or need advise or information there are plenty of knowledgeable people in here who will help.



Liam

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15 years 6 months ago #5922 by dave_lillis
Anthony,
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
When I first saw this offer, the first thing that occured to me is that Meade is going to change this scope soon and is getting rid of their stock.

There are historical precendents to this, when the LX200 range was upgraded to the GPS system, meade had a very good sale before the change over.

Meade also got rid of most of their 4000 series plossl in the offer that ended a few months ago, again to accomodate the arrival of the 5000 series eyepieces!

All the other ETX scopes went through an upgrade only in the last month or so, the 70 will change along with them or be phased out.

Orions Neb,
I completely understand your concerns about this scope.
I'm always wary of budding astronomers buying scopes uninformed and end up seeing nothing !! I've seen it happen.
I respect your views and please dont think we're picking on you for having a different opinion, its good that people have different opinions and one of the mian points of the IFAS is that differing opinions are allowed and that a single idea isn't pushed down everyones throat.
If a starting astronomer is going to get either of these scopes, I'd hope that they would be informed as to what they will see and what they will not see through it.

Here's a quick guide.
Easy objects = planets, moon, bright open clusters, double stars, M31
medium/hard objects = bright globular clusters, bright nebula (a handfull)
Impossible objects = most galaxies, most planetary nebula, everything else not mentioned above.

Forget those voyager 2 images of Saturn, objects will be hard to see ...
you need to be realistic about this.
When I say M31 above, I mean you will see a fuzz, even through a 12" scopes its a fuzz !! forget about arms, dust lanes etc.

For me its the portability factor and the goto, I know what to expect through this scope, so there will be no surprises for me atleast.
I used a 60mm EQ tasco for 5 years until I got my hand on a 13" dob.
I remeber that in 1986, it costed £200, but we didnt know any better, but I got great use out of it.
If we prevent one person from making that mistake, then thats one less budding astronomer lost to the cause.

IF this scope is a lemon optically, then I'll be replacing it.
Alot of it is plastic but then agin the price and weight is small, if it was a big scope, then it would be a different story.

If this is not a genuine Meade, I wouldn't touch it with a barge poll, I'll be the first to email Meade telling them that lidl are selling cloned equipment, Meade are good at suing companies, as celestron found out.

I've seen the ETX90 in action and if its as good as it mechanically, then the mount alone is worth that money.

Dave L. on facebook , See my images in flickr
Chairman. Shannonside Astronomy Club (Limerick)

Carrying around my 20" obsession is going to kill me,
but what a way to go. :)
+ 12"LX200, MK67, Meade2045, 4"refractor

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15 years 6 months ago #5924 by Bren
Cheers Liam. I might have a few questions come Monday :wink:

I just wanted to mention the review above said that the ETX70 is metal.

As for the scope itself, the tube is shiny blue metal.


Hopefully a solid build.

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15 years 6 months ago #5926 by orions neb
Hi all.

I think most of you have me hanged already without evidence to proof my story wrong. You know…it took courage for me to come on here and say what I thought of it all…it wasn’t easy. I knew I would get feed back about it and I was prepared for it.

So ok my opinion don’t count for anything by the sound of it…..that’s ok to, whether it’s a Meade or not I will still stick by my opinion. And not once did I say anything about lidls reputation. I was only saying about the scope and how lidls managed to secure a batch of them when other places cant. Also I mentioned in one of my post in advance that someone will twist my words around…..well that has also been done.

Its been said that Meade might be more or less getting rid of old stock…..does this mean lidls is in line for all Meade products that are old stock? And as for the advice about not buying scopes from department stores and so on its plain to see that doesn’t count anymore either. After all this is what ive been on about and you see it differently to me its like an exception has been made this time because it’s a Meade? Next week they could offer another scope which wont be branded and someone will want advice about it…are you gonna tell them to keep away from such scopes? Practice what you preach make no exceptions because of a name there is a lot of would be astronomers out there that need guiding and look for your help……things like this don’t do any justice to astronomy it just violates what the pros have been saying for years!!

I shall wait for more replies to my posts and see what else your gonna throw at me for being honest. Ive also checked a couple of websites on this forum…..they also mention what ive been saying,

I go now and prepare for my sentence Monday morning…..hopefully I will be innocent!!

Orion

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15 years 6 months ago #5927 by dave_lillis

And as for the advice about not buying scopes from department stores and so on its plain to see that doesn’t count anymore either.


I wouldn't touch 99.9% of the telescopes in chemists or department stores, and that is what I say to all our new members.

But if I see a reputable make and a known model at a very good price?

This scopes is no tasco, I own a meade a celestron and a tasco and only one of these scopes has a plastic tube and a crap so-called viewfinder!
but lets not get carried away, its not a Teleview Ranger 70 ($600) either.

Dave L. on facebook , See my images in flickr
Chairman. Shannonside Astronomy Club (Limerick)

Carrying around my 20" obsession is going to kill me,
but what a way to go. :)
+ 12"LX200, MK67, Meade2045, 4"refractor

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15 years 6 months ago #5928 by dmcdona
Orion - I think you are misreading what is being posted here.

No-one is 'hanging' you - not even close! I think I speak for most people here - your input *is* appreciated, you opinions *are* appreciated and they most certainly do account for something. You have made some very good points - it just so happens that this time round, some people don't fully agree with you. C'est la vie! But I really do hope that your current experience doesn't put you (or anyone else on this board) off posting your opinions.

And those that don't agree with you have supported their alternative opinions with corroborating evidence. So they haven't been twisting your words around at all.

If Lidl offer a no-name, unbranded scope on Tuesday, I think you would find that pretty much all the posters on this board would strongly advise against anyone buying it.

I also think the current Lidl offer is probably a one-off unique event for the reasons other posters have stated.

And by the way, if it turns out to be great scope, I don't think anyone here will be posting a message to you. And if the scope turns out to be useless, then there'll be rather alot of humble pie on the Monday night dinner menu. :shock:


Dave

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