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'Are UFOs Real?'

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18 years 10 months ago #13135 by Bill_H
Replied by Bill_H on topic Re: 'Are UFOs Real?'

Well if I was an alien with hyperspace travel technology and all that, I'd be too scared to stay on this planet for too long! After seeing some of the crap that is beamed into space (Coronation Street, war programmes etc etc), I don't think I'd be arsed really!

:lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Thats why they never visit me, Lesley always has the soaps on! i keep telling her to make more sensible use of her time and spend more time at the soup pot :lol:
Bill.

Astronomers do it with the lights off.

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18 years 10 months ago #13142 by stepryan
Replied by stepryan on topic Re: Are UFOs real

I take your points Bill regarding misinformation and disinformation of UFOs.

What could it be that the governments have been so concerned about? As everyone likes to ask: why the secrecy? Surely, if the US and NATO truly believed what they said for years about UFOs – that they are usually misidentifications of natural phenomena – they would hardly be interested in the problem. But that is not the case. When one studies the available data, these objects have violated restricted air space, and have been seen by thousands of witnesses.

The core of the problem comes down to two possible answers. Both are startling, and both difficult to accept, in their own way. The first possibility is that UFOs are the product of a revolutionary, human, technological breakthrough. This comes round to the programme Stephen referred to on TV on Man Made Flying Saucers. Rumours have existed for a long time, one of which referred to in the programme traces the development to Hitler’s Germany. Without denying the sophistication of the German scientific establishment, such a claim cannot shake the aura of absurdity. The Germans, acknowledged by all to have done the most advanced work during the war in the field of aerodynamics, barely figured out how to reach England with their V-2 rockets. A breakthrough to create flying saucer technology would have involved much more than propulsion technology, materials, and aerodynamics. It would have meant the creation of a viable anti-gravity craft with nearly unlimited maneuverability and speed. There has never been the slightest shred of evidence, either in the realm of fact or common sense, that points to a German flying saucer with those capabilities. Yes, there were flying saucer developments but with technology of the period according to the records.

Could flying saucers have been invented after the war by the Americans, or possibly someone else? This was a distinctive possibility mulled over by various groups in the early years. During a huge wave of UFOs of 1947, several classified documents expressed the belief that the objects were a secret American, or possibly Soviet, technology. Yet the US group assigned to the problem in 1948, Project SIGN, rejected both explanations. If Soviet, why fly these things over the American heartland? If American, why fly them over cities, where everyone could see them, or over sensitive installations, where they were harassed by US aircraft? Add on top of this the amazing production levels that would be necessary to fly so many of these objects, which were seen all over the world. After all, even if one discounts the flying discs of World War Two, that were not only seen in Europe, but in India, Indonesia, New Zealand, Solomon Islands and China. What about the sightings over Scandinavia and the rest of Europe in 1946? Were these the result of revolutionary American or Soviet technology?

Looking back from some distance, we can see that the problems of creating a flying saucer were no easier for the Americans or Soviets than they had been for the Germans. Such a breakthrough, so soon after the war, makes no sense. Moreover, it is supported by no evidence.

It is this very issue that makes a study of the early period of UFOs so important. Few people doubt that 21st Century aviation technology is capable of fantastic feats, many of which could be attributed to “flying saucers.” The point is, was such a technology in existence at the mid-20th century? All indicators point to a definitive NO.

The second possibility, that UFOs are the product of an alien technology. Without devising arguments, one can look at the historical and technological evidence. For decades, every official study of UFOs followed the same pattern: extended analysis of the data persuaded researchers that aliens were the most likely explanation, a conclusion that was inimical to those in charge of the study. As early as 1948, Project SIGN concluded that flying saucers were probably extraterrestrial. After the UFO project at Wright-Patterson AFB in the USA was revitalized in 1952, matters again
reached the critical point, and most project members favoured an extraterrestrial solution. This, too, ended in failure and dispersion. After 1966, when the US Air Force carefully selected a university to solve the problem once and for all, a near mass resignation ensued, and UFO believers were fired midway through the project.

There is no lack of important persons who attested to the reality of the UFO phenomenon, nor of the belief that aliens were behind it. But what else is there? Unfortunately, there is no authorised piece of a UFO craft to analyse, although several ought to exist.

What remains is photographic evidence, radar/visual evidence, and an enormous mass of witness testimony.

This comes back to the weakness of the documentary on man made flying saucers. It appears that the producers created a problem of selectivity, not thorough investigative journalism of the wider picture of Ufology, but selectivity to project the idea to the uninitiated audience that it was all a hoax.

I agree Bill with your points re. disinformation.

Journalists who think they’re too intelligent to be fooled are, in fact, those most susceptible to being fooled.

The history of counter-intelligence provides many examples of extremely astute military leaders who were hoodwinked by a carefully constructed deception campaign. The point is that, given enough coordinated effort, anyone can be fooled. Propaganda works by subtly reinforcing existing beliefs. It is not surprising , then, that the intelligence community regularly provides those who believe UFOs are nonsense with additional reasons to continue thinking that way.

Common sense is not enough to understand UFOs (or any other scientific anomaly). Those who argue that UFOs are obvious nonsense and should be dismissed, based purely on common sense, either do not understand the purpose of science or are being duplicitous. In order to make progress, science must examine scientific anomalies because they provide essential clues to the inadequacies of existing theories.

Beware of the false dichotomy between natural and supernatural. As Arthur C. Clarke wrote, “Any sufficient advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Or, to put it another way, what seems like magic today may become tomorrow’s high technology.

Eamonn A



eamonn,
i was not claiming that they used anti gravity technology in nazi germany, they were in fact using giant propellors to draw the air down over the disk.

firstly there is no proof that UFOS use antigrav or any other such technology, if there was they then would not be unidentified. in fact there is not much proof or evidence about them at all in fact. all i am suggesting is that there could be an explanation that is much simpler, much closer to home. they have an area in the USA the size of wales to hide test planes in called area 51. who can say what they have certianly not you or I.

people see lots of things but not necessarily all of them are there. you say that some people dont understand science well that maybe be true but to go from some fuzzy photo to little green men flying an antigrav space ship also shows a failure of the scientific method. imposing a pet theory is just as faulty science as dismissing something on common sense. while advanced technology could appear to be like majic to a primitive people. but somebody has to prove that there is any technology involved at all from another civilisation. the people who set out prove that these things exist are as equally likely to be selective in their evidence as their critics.

as for the theory that they are trying to slowly introduce us poor backward primitive humans into their pan galactic civilisation is convienent way to cover up the lack of evidence. it also means they can look down at the rest of us poor unknowing sods who from a great height knowing that we are not ready to be part of the pan galatic civilisation.
stephen.

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18 years 10 months ago #13160 by finnjim2001
Replied by finnjim2001 on topic Re: 'Are UFOs Real?'
The whole mass hysteria debate was summed up quite nicely in Men in Black i think

J - People are smart
K - A person is smart. people are dumb

Case in point. you can get a group of highly intelligent people together and within seconds are a raging raving mob e.g. May day parades, football matches, July north of the border (no offence ment to anyone just an observation)

Somedays you're the dog,
Somedays you're the lamp post.

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18 years 10 months ago #13163 by eansbro
Replied by eansbro on topic Are UFOs real?
Dpower, I agree with you that the vast majority of sightings are experimental/black projects. It is possible that both American and European (industrial/military) have developed another technology that may be fundamentally different with new principles that don’t fit known aerodynamics.

For example, between 1989 and 1991, some 2000 UFO sightings were reported from Belgium. Many of them were seen by hundreds of witnesses. In most cases a large Hectometer sized deltoid craft at low altitude was observed, displaying lights or search lights at each corner and a red light in the centre (SOBEPS 1990)

During this wave of sightings the Belgium study group SOBEBS recorded about 900 cases which include photo and video footage, in which witnesses claimed to have been less than 300m away from the object. There are several multiple radar/visual confirmations of the UFO. One night a UFO was tracked by 4 separate Belgium NATO radar stations and by the on board radar of an F-16 military plane. The F-16 was scrambled to pursue the UFO which was also seen visually by several witnesses on the ground.

Descending from a height of about 3000m the UFO dove three times below the radar horizon of about 100m after the radar tracking device had locked onto the target, developing an acceleration of up to 43g. The Belgium Minister of Defence, Guy Coeme, gave permission to transfer the recordings of 3 ground stations and 2 jet radar devices to SOBEBS for further analysis. See full technical report (Ref. SOBEBS 1990)

Hectometer sized detoid aerial craft or Flying Triangles (FT) have been known since the 1950s. These poorly illuminated craft have been reported manoeuvring just above tree canopy level and below the stall speeds of conventional fixed wing aircraft often to the bewilderment of witnesses. No governments have acknowledged the ownership or existence of these highly manoeuvrable hectometre craft, however, are we witnessing the long overdue next generation of tactical aircraft. It’s amazing that they have been around for 50 years!

However, another possible reason many witnesses to FT flights tend to favour unconventional hypothesis towards the craft may be due to their unusual behaviour.
The National Institute of Discovery Science (USA) report of 2004 illustrates this point
“The FTs are being openly deployed over and near population centres, including in the vicinity of major Interstate Highways. The behaviour of these Triangular aircraft does not conform to previous patterns of covert deployment of unacknowledged aircraft. Neither the agenda nor the origin of the Flying Triangles are currently known. (NIDS report 2004)

Dpower, your last paragraph may correlate with the theory “Inference of an ET strategy” (See p.5). This may fit the scenario you suggested.

Stephen, I also understood that Nazi Germany were using propeller systems for their flying saucers. Regarding proof that UFOs use antigravity technologies is only speculation based on the interpretation of maneuverability of the ‘craft’. A good book to check out of possible UFO propulsion (See Unconventional Flying Objects – A Scientific Analysis by Paul Hill) He worked for NASA as an aerospace engineer.


I agree with your explanation that highly secret aircraft may have been developed in Area 51. However, what I find intriguing, even before the establishment of Area 51 (1955), is to how does one account for ‘craft’ of the 1940s that fit the behaviour patterns of what appears to be a fundamentally different technology that are still witnessed to this day, that are called UFOs

Your other point you raised “somebody has to prove that there is any technology involved at all from another civilisation” With a variation on this point the UFO phenomenon may represent a ‘Control System’. There are many control systems around us. Some are part of nature: ecology, climate, population development, are common examples; others are social, like the process of higher education, or justice system, or a concentration camp; still others, such as the attitude control of a rocket or satellite are built by man.

If the UFO phenomenon represents a control system, can we test it to determine if it is natural or artificial, open or closed? This may be one of the interesting questions about the phenomenon, a question to be answered yet.

I agree with you regarding SELECTIVITY. I think this is one of the major problems with the phenomena and the interpretations to date. One can easily go down the wrong track. I think it is a lot more complex and we may not be in a position to understand it right now. However, there is no harm in trying out some theories and see if the data fits.

As we are all astronomers on this bulletin board some of us have a curiosity about this phenomenon. I believe an astrophysical approach fits the scientific rationale. This is why continuing study of reported anomalous events is important: It may provide us with an existence theorem for new models of physical reality.

No experiment can distinguish between phenomena manifested by visiting interstellar (arbitrarily advanced) ETI and intelligent entities that may exist near earth within a parallel universe or in different dimensions, or who are (terrestrial) time travellers.

Eamonn A

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18 years 10 months ago #13165 by finnjim2001
Replied by finnjim2001 on topic Re: Are UFOs real?

Stephen, I also understood that Nazi Germany were using propeller systems for their flying saucers. Regarding proof that UFOs use antigravity technologies is only speculation based on the interpretation of maneuverability of the ‘craft’. A good book to check out of possible UFO propulsion (See Unconventional Flying Objects – A Scientific Analysis by Paul Hill) He worked for NASA as an aerospace engineer.


Eamonn A


Another book to discuss the possible use of the so called gravity drive is the "hunt for zero point" by nick cook who's the aerospace consultatant for janes defence weekly. A very good informative and thought provoking read by a respected journilist in thie field of aerospace. If i remember rightly (and it's a couple of years since i read it dammed lack of photographic memory :roll: ) he pretty much says that the evidence suggests that it could have been possible then and may have been developed since. nothing conclusive i know but jus bear this in mind. Wright flier 15mph 1903. concord 1000mph in 60s and nothing new since. Just because it's not public doesn't mean it's not there. the roumers surrounding the successor to the sr71 - the aurora have been around for over a decade with no confirmed sighting. the f117 was in development for over a decade with test flights from groom lake before it went public. if it's that good why go public. unless there is something there to replace it in secret.

Yea i know conspiricy theorys all but science fact can start from science fiction. the idea for the apple newton was the handheld computers on star trek generations. how many people here now have pda's.

:D

Somedays you're the dog,
Somedays you're the lamp post.

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18 years 10 months ago #13446 by eansbro
Replied by eansbro on topic Re: 'Are UFOs Real?'
I came across an interesting recent published paper dealing with exotic propulsion technologies observed from unknown deltoid craft. The paper mentions that the repeated reports of these craft demonstrates a performance which appears to incorporate an internal dynamic field drive mechanism as a means of propulsion. The author explains the manifestations of the movement of the craft within the atmosphere and extrapolates these findings in some detail.

Ref: "Observations of apparent Exotic Propulsion technologies from Hectometer sized Deltoid Aerial craft at low altitude"
Author: Edward Halerewicz, Jr. in Journal of Advanced Propulsion Methods,
November, 2004

Eamonn A

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